[ SECRET POST #989 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #989 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.


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102.


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103.


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104.
[Star Wars]


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105.
[Avatar]


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106.
[One Piece]


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107.


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108.
[Glee]


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109.
[Sonny with a Chance]


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110.
[DCU]


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111.
[Perez Hilton]


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112.
[gunnerkrigg court]


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113.
[MGS4]


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114.
[Katekyo Hitman Reborn!]


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115.


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116.
[SPN]


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117.
[Scandinavia and the World]


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118.


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119.
[China Miéville]


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120.
[Pirates of the Caribbean]


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121.


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122.
[Supernatural]


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123.
[WWE]


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124.
[SPN]


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125.
[Persona 4]


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126.
[SPN]


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127.
[Boondock Saints]


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128.


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129.
[The Path]


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130.
[The Black Keys]


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131.
[Perez Hilton]


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132.
[Black Jewels Trilogy by Anne Bishop]


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133.
[Pandora Hearts]


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134.
[Pokemon]


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135.
[Metalocalypse]


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136.


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137.
[Hetalia]


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138.
[SPN]


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139.


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140.
[Patrick Swayze/Queer As Folk]


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141.
[Roar]


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142.
[Guilty Gear]


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143.
[Hetalia]


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144.
[Dexter]


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145.
[Merlin]


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146.
[Glee]


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147.
[Metal Gear Ac!d]


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148.
[Ace Attorney]


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149.
[Lupin III]


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150. http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8283/secret2z.jpg
[porn]


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151.
[Watchmen]


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152.


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153.


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154.
[Juno]


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155.
[Kingdom Hearts]


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156.
[Super Junior]


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157.


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158.


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159.


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160.


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161.


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162.


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163.


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164.
[Greek]


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165.
[AWZ]


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166.
[Darker than Black]


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167.
[The Crow]


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168.
[A Song of Ice and Fire]


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169.


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170.


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171.
[Eyeshield 21]


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172.


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173.


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174.


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177.


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178.


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180.


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182.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 19 pages, 460 secrets from Secret Submission Post #142.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 - doing it wrong ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Wow. You know, I can say from experience, realizing your sexuality isn't quite what you thought it was CAN be a very big deal for some people. I don't know why it somehow offends you that fics deal with and mention that, but that's not homophobia, jesus christ. I can see where you're coming from about bottoming and gender roles, but the rest of it? I'm sorry, just no.

[elmathelas.livejournal.com]

MTE. I fell in love with my best friend YEARS after we'd met, and while I didn't experience gay panic I did experience gay WTF-ery. After I had calmed down about that I realized that if I were honest with myself I'd have realized that I'd been bi for a long time, and then after that I was able to start a relationship with her. The whole process took months. So sure, I can see where that storyline would be tiresome if it's all you've encountered, but a.) it's far from all I've encountered and b.) it's sometimes fairly true to what real life can be.

And if a fic presents a character perceiving homosexuality as Other, well, to that character it may well be. And to a person who has thought that they were straight all their lives, gay people are the Other. Whether or not you get over that is part of the story.

Incidentally, many fanfiction writers haven't reached the point in their education where they get to deconstruct texts in this manner, so throwing around fairly specialized academic jargon in reference to a popular fanfic pairing is, perhaps, excluding people who haven't yet chewed through the entire Hegelian history of the Other and Simone de Bouvior's development of the concept in particular.

If you're so irritated, I beg you, please do write some of what would please you. It would probably be a joy to a great deal of fanfic readers as well.

[eugenetapdance.livejournal.com]

I actually haven't read Hegel or Beauvoir. And I agree with everything the OP is saying. Granted, I've read a lot of philosophy and a lot of queer theory, but still.

Go figure.

[elmathelas.livejournal.com]

Exactly, you're well-versed in the language used by theorists to describe theory. Because you've read queer theory and philosophy you don't have to wonder for even one second why it's Other and not other. Just because you don't know the history of how the term evolved to be the term we use today as opposed to the concept it began as doesn't mean that you don't know how to use it or recognize it in context. Even though it seems old hat to you, you're still in the vast minority of most people on earth who would just wonder, why is there a capital O at the beginning of that word? And that doesn't make those other (ha ha) people less worthy or less intelligent or thoughtful, it just means that in terms of how they view the world they don't have that particular lens to look through.

I just think it's a bit rich to complain about fiction effectively Othering people when in fact the OP is using language that splits the readers into 2 distinct camps.

[eugenetapdance.livejournal.com]

You make a great point. The last thing we need is elitism.

That said, I work at a high school with a four year philosophy requirement, and one of our big beliefs is that anyone can understand big concepts like Otherness. Because of that I'm invested in politely and reasonably trying to explain them to the segments of fandom who don't seem to quite get why the fiction they're writing is stereotypical and makes a lot of gay men uncomfortable.

Plus, as a gay man, I'd just like to see slash fandom become a little more of a safe zone for guys like me.

[elmathelas.livejournal.com]

Fandom is such a weird place sometimes. If you'd said to me socially, in the flesh, "anyone can understand philosophy," depending on what kind of situations I'd been dealing with at work that day I might feel compelled to point out that sure, anyone can, as long as they're not worried about fulfilling Maslow's heirarchy of needs, as long as they're not locked in a battle of Ego Integrity versus Despair. But most people who have time and resources to be in fandom are well towards the top of the pyramid of needs and if they're not progressing nicely along Erickson's stages of development, well, either they hide it well or else they get called out a lot. One or the other.

The kind of angst-fest that the OP describes sounds to me like it's simply bad fiction, because overcoming one's own interalized homophobia/heteronormativeness is a pretty well documented phenomenon that happens to some people-- not all, but to say it happens to your character is not to say that it is all people. If it's written well there's no reason it can't be a reasonable obstacle to be overcome. If it's written badly, there's nothing to be done about that, really. I haven't felt like there's a quorum of fics containing internalized homophobia, but I don't read everything in fandom, either.

And I'm sure there's a confirmation bias sort of thing going on here, as in, if I'm reading something and it seems like it's going to suck, including a lot of hand-wringing beyond what seems reasonable in context for that particular story, I'll just stop reading.

In the Harry Potter fandom years ago there was a fair bit of irritation over the fact that there was no homophobia at Hogwarts and everyone was just immediately accepting of homosexual relationships, a sort of At Hogwarts Everyone is Queer issue, but with a fandom that includes magic at its core, it's better than even money that it's queered a bit to begin with anyway.

[ontogenesis.livejournal.com]

and one of our big beliefs is that anyone can understand big concepts like Otherness.

Anyone with the will to learn. ^_~ :used to teach:

Because of that I'm invested in politely and reasonably trying to explain them to the segments of fandom who don't seem to quite get why the fiction they're writing is stereotypical and makes a lot of gay men uncomfortable.

Plus, as a gay man, I'd just like to see slash fandom become a little more of a safe zone for guys like me.

I'm a gay woman who writes slash (more relationship-focused than erotic, but yeah, it's guys who like guys), but I'm well aware that my experience as a gay woman is not quite the same as that of a gay man. So I just try to focus on getting the characterizations right -- writing them as individuals first rather than "gays" -- and I hope that helps balance out my ignorance.
Personally, I hope that if a gay man read my works, and something didn't feel right to him as a gay man, he'd feel safe to tell me, just like any other type of criticism (e.g., a person who plays go telling me I just totally screwed up a game in the story).

...now I have the sudden urge to read femmeslash written by gay men.

[herongale]

I don't think slash fandom will ever really become a safe zone for gay men. It's too busy being a safe zone for straight, bisexual, and lesbian women.

However, that doesn't mean you need feel left out or unwelcome. It just means that you are being a bit naive to expect that your comfort should be a priority, considering you are not the intended audience for most slash fanworks. The only way to find the safe zone you seek is to band together with like minded individuals and form a community around your ideas. ALL of slash fandom may never be what you want it to be, but that doesn't mean that you can't carve out your own corner of it and make it your own.

[eugenetapdance.livejournal.com]

Your comment makes me extremely uncomfortable.

You seem to be suggesting that while all members of slash fandom should be attentive to the comfort of women, because slash fandom is a safe zone for women, the comfort of men should be more or less disregarded and we should take what we can get.

I take issue with your assumption that queer men are somehow not the audience for slash fanwork. We've been hanging around these parts an awful long time -- since it all started, in fact, with K/S -- and we have no desire to leave. In fact, we've made some valuable contributions (http://www.squidge.org/~minotaur/classic/eroc.html). To suggest that that slash fandom isn't a space that we have the right to feel comfortable in when the whole point of slash fandom is to write about gay men seems a little absurd to me.

What I think is that the straight and queer women in slash fandom should give a little up to the queer guys in terms of realism and lack of stereotypes, and the queer guys should give a little up to the straight women in terms of allowing everyone to have implausible fantasies. I strongly believe that this is possible, if everyone retains an open mind. Why do we have to have it so that only the women can be comfortable in all of fandom and the men can only be comfortable in one little bit? I see no reason it can't be integrated. I don't want to separate from the women in slash fandom! I love them, or I wouldn't be here!

[herongale]

"You seem to be suggesting that while all members of slash fandom should be attentive to the comfort of women, because slash fandom is a safe zone for women (..)"

That is not at all what I was intending to suggest. Slash fandom already is pretty much a safe zone for women, but that is simply because of demographics. I'm not particularly invested in the idea that it must be so, I'm simply pointing out that it is. I'm not especially interested in being "safe" online, if that means never encountering people who disagree with me or who write things that make me uncomfortable.

So long as the majority of slash fans online are women, whatever "safety" one can find in such a space will be of a sort that caters to them.

And although some slash writers court gay men as readers, I know I don't. I'm happy when gay men enjoy my stories, of course, but it doesn't bother me if they don't. I write for myself.

I think you need to recognize that for many people, slash is not about realistic gay people. That a lot of girls who write slash do it with the intentional objectification of males in mind, and with the same level of prurience you'd find with straight men going on about their girl-on-girl fantasies. Who in their right mind thinks that the typical straight man's lesbian fantasies have anything to do with actual lesbians? Why should women have to conform their fantasies to your comfort, if that means sacrificing a part of what they found hot about their fantasies to begin with?

My point of view is that no one should "give up" anything to anyone when it comes to writing out their fan stories. People should write out their OWN fantasies, period, realistic or not. If you want realistic slash, write it yourself, or seek out the stories which feature such sex. I myself tend to prefer realism in my slash, but I don't begrudge those writers who disagree, because they are writing for themselves. Demographically, as a gay man in a predominantly female part of fandom, you will always be outnumbered. But that doesn't mean you have to feel outclassed. Just do your own thing, and the girls who you want to commune with WILL find you.

Slash fandom already is integrated, as well as it ever will be... but it's never going to be a melting pot where people merge their points of views, but rather an eclectic soup containing a bunch of distinct flavors. Why not embrace THIS, and stop worrying about your comfort, or anyone else's? Be yourself online, ignore the haters, and in general... stop looking for things to happen which won't ever happen. All you're doing is hurting yourself with your unrealistic expectations.

The big lie of slash fandom is that it has anything to do with promoting awareness of gay rights or gay identity issues. Any girl who feels that simply participating in slash fandom is enough to make her more enlightened is severely mistaken. Slash is a fantasy, cut off from reality. Some parts of the fantasy are directly against true gay rights. But just as a woman should feel free to indulge in the dirtiest, most exploitative rape fantasies while still not approving of rape IRL, I think women should be allowed their exploitative sexual fantasies about gay men, so long as those fantasies don't bleed over into how they treat gay men IRL or online. My big beef with female slash writers re: gay men is that all too often they tend to put the gay men in their fandoms on these pedestals of absolute adoration, and seem to think that their cooing and fawning is anything other than insultingly fetishistic. I really could care less about the dumbass fantasies people write in their stories, but imho all slash writers would do well to become more cognizant of the actual gay community. Not to make their own stories more realistic, but to make their treatment of actual gay men to be more respectful and human.