[ SECRET POST #6587 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6587 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[Guardians 3]



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07. [SPOILERS for Reservation Dogs]




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08. [WARNING for discussion of sexual assault]

[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]


























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #940.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

08. [WARNING for discussion of sexual assault]
https://i.imgur.com/KCzFX47.png
[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]

Transcript by OP

[fscom]

When I first watched it, I found this scene shocking, upsetting...and also completely in character. Despite being a big Spike fan, a thing like this happening felt almost inevitable, given their issues.

But my fandom friends insisted it was bad writing: horribly OOC, a gratuitous shock, to be ignored. And I thought they must know better than I did.

Finally coming back to it as an adult, I'm back to my first take. I don't know if that's controversial these days. And I don't care anymore. But I am still a bit embarrassed at how easily I let myself by swayed by fandom consensus.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, the both of them were playing BDSM games where no meant yes, and stop meant harder and more violence, but neither of them set a safe word. That scenario was inevitable.

Always use a safeword, people.

[(Anonymous)]

It is a little more nuanced. In lieu of a safe word, they were relying on Buffy naturally being stronger and more emotionally dominant to put a stop to any play that went too far or being unwanted. That scene occurred on a rare occasion where she was physically injured and also emotionally checked out, and unable to do her usual thing of ending the interaction. It doesn't seem to dawn on Spike until the very end that it is not just one of their usual violent games, and when he does realize it he is very conflicted. So it is not clear cut domestic abuse.

Safe Words are a Good though.

[(Anonymous)]

Honestly, yeah. I was very late to the party with watching this show but when I got to this part, knowing it had happened, all I could think was that it made perfect sense from a character arc/narrative, one that had been being built for ages.

Was it fun to watch? No. But it made sense for the characters and the story.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

it was IC for both of them and added to the overarching dramatic storyline.

for all of Joss Whedon's faults, which are multitude, this was not one of them. I feel like fandom defaults to this moment as proof of Whedon's shit when it wasn't even in the top 20 of shitty things he did to his actors or the story.

Re: +1

[(Anonymous)]

Wasn't this in Marti's era of the show too?

[(Anonymous)]

maybe?? I'm not there yet on my latest rewatch. There's a LOT we didn't know in the 90s/00s about our favorite series based on writers and directors that make a lot more sense now that we know directors and writers had so much influence on the characters versus what the actors were bringing us.

Re: +1

[(Anonymous)]

+2 I always saw it as a culmination of their horrifically unhealthy relationship. It was always going to go too far. And the fact that it was treated, by the narrative and the characters, as too far--especially Spike--helped as well.

"Why does a man do what he mustn't? For her. To be hers. To be the kind of man who would nev—...To be a kind of man."

[kamino_neko]

Yeah, like...Spike is a monster. A monster who's trying to be better, but still a monster who spent a century and change just taking what he wanted. That he crossed a line here is not surprising, especially given his relationship with Buffy.

[(Anonymous)]

It was 100% in-character and suited to the overall arc and mood of the season. Hard to watch, yes, but it felt inevitable and led to believable character growth IMO.

[(Anonymous)]

At least it gave Spike an honest to goodness actual character arc. Something most shows still don't bother with.

[(Anonymous)]

It is 100% in character. I’ve never understood the Spike stans and the “it’s oh so romantic” Spuffy shippers.

[(Anonymous)]

What bugs me is when people condemn Spike as a character over this but not Angel, when it's like. Spike (no soul): almost does a sexual assault, is remorseful enough to go get himself a soul about it vs Angel (with soul): fucks a highschooler, the only issue with this is supernatural consequences.

Like I know there's a difference in how these are framed but come on.

[(Anonymous)]

I think "having entirely consensual sex with a person at the age of consent" is not the same thing as "sexual assault"!

[(Anonymous)]

Even if you want to pretend that Angel was still the age he was when he died the first time, there's not as much difference between "26-year-old fucks the 17-year-old high school student he's been stalking since she was 15" and "sexual assault" as you seem to think.

[(Anonymous)]

....acktuarley it is ephebophilia....

[(Anonymous)]

On the subject of Angel, I always got the feeling Angel resented his soul. That he kinda wished he was still the monster deep down. When we saw "Liam" in flashbacks, he was halfway to being a hedonistic vampire already even as a human. The soul was forced on him and made him feel things and care about others, and he didn't like it. That was part of the reason he glommed onto Buffy as the Slayer, because he could then offload a lot of his caring consequences onto her and have her deal with stuff instead of him. I was never Team Angel, even when the show aired. Him and Xander were not great people.

[(Anonymous)]

Popular fanon or fan opinion has easily swayed me so many times; I was never into Buffy but have had the same experience across multiple fandoms.

My favorite character in my favorite book series as a kid, because I related to her more than any other character and it was because her personality traits were rarely put in combination with each other? Many years later the series gains a fandom of nostalgic teens who all agree that she's the worst character, she's boring and a borderline Mary Sue. I instantly convince myself they were right and she was never my favorite; it was the other girl, the good character. I actually read the books again as an adult and not only was child-me right, my original favorite was an even better character than I remembered. (And the fandom seems to have redacted its opinion of her as well and loves her now, but I don't know how much of that is sincere and how much is not liking a Black female character being bad optics.)

But yeah anyway that's really common. Trust your initial judgment!

[(Anonymous)]

I tend to feel like both of these were true, they're just interfacing with the story on different levels.

Within canon, it seemed entirely believable to me that this could happen, especially from Spike's side. I found it more difficult to believe that Buffy could put him in his place every other time, but *tonight* for handwavey reasons, we're supposed to know she is truly incapacitated and helpless. Given how they normally pushed at each other's limits, I thought it was IC.

In meta, though, knowing that Spike was runaway popular with the fandom but seemed to frustrate the writers, I got a very strong impression that they staged a rape scene for him, with Buffy, intending this to be his big fall from grace; as a way of manipulating the viewers into recommitting to Buffy and the straightforwardly "good" good-guys. Which of course did not happen, and I love that it didn't. Spike is a far more interesting character, to me, than the men I think Joss knowingly set up as love interests. I also think he had a fairly simplistic concept of feminism, and expected that the sort of people who embraced his version of Strong Female Character would look no farther than Spike being guilty. As if the fact that Buffy is stronger than him and, overall, the ones that called all the shots - including his being allowed to live - would mean nothing to us.

[(Anonymous)]

Spike knew she was saying no. But it was in character for him to let himself ignore her due to the violence of their previous encounters, as if he couldn't tell the difference. I was totally shocked watching it, yet it also seemed inevitable because at that point, Spike truly is a demon.

For sure your original take was spot on, OP.