[ SECRET POST #6759 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6759 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 18 secrets from Secret Submission Post #965.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[thewakokid]

It's nothing to do with the pregnancy, and more to do with her use of "heroes" to reference the comedian. To reference ANY of them really. It wasn't supposed to be a story about heroes. She used quotes but I wonder who she was quoting? Because if you think the film is saying ANY of the characters (except maybe Rorschach) were supposed to be seen as heroic... yeah, you might have a media literacy problem. But I suspect the rest of my night will be spend arguing with people more interested in calling me stupid in bad faith - without actually reading any of this - if I keep trying to explain what I actually mean, so I dunno. Ok, fine, yes I hate pregnant chicks. Have fun with that.

[iff_and_xor]

Isn’t it entirely possible that it’s being used to indicate that these are people taking the role we associate with superheroes, but are not in fact heroic?

The quotes are being used to express dubiousness, not to indicate a direct quote.

[thewakokid]

Yeah, but I still argue that saying they were heroes, supposed to be heroes, were presented as heroes, or that in any way ""Heroes"" is... missing the point.

Like... No-one, not even the movie was pretending any of the were heroes.

Like you say they were "taking the role we associate with superheroes" but I argue that if you think that going in to the movie, you've been mis-sold. If you think that coming out of the movie, even if you leave after the 1/4 point, you missed the point. They weren't really taking on a superhero role.

Like yes, the quotes were expressing dubiousness... but they were expressing dubiousness about a thing that, by that point should be beyond doubt. You should not be "dubious" about the comedians role as a hero, you should be quite early on completely sure of his lack of heroism as the point of the movie. And if you still have doubts at the vietnam scenes you might have missed what the movie was trying to illustrate.

[iff_and_xor]

Okay, maybe dubiousness was too gentle a term.

Would you have the same reaction if OP had said “so-called heroes”?

I mean, as far as I remember, “superhero” is a term used in the comic and the film, at least in some PR contexts.

[thewakokid]

That would have made it clearer what they were saying. I think I'd have been at least willing to not openly question it, but even then I would somewhere in the back of my head wonder "Wait, tho... who called them heroes? I mean maybe the news papers in the film referred to them as such, but she knows that those aren't really supposed to be taken as reliable, right? That the narrative is explicitly calling them unheroic, yeah?"

[iff_and_xor]

Yeah, there’s some disconnect here and I feel like you’ve maybe had some history trying to argue with people about their understanding of this film and maybe you’re primed to see misinterpretation.

They are very much referred to as superheroes (despite mostly being neither super nor remotely heroic) in a lot of official material and thoughtful critiques. People are usually allowed to use this term without having to specify that they understand it’s not an accurate one.

[(Anonymous)]

I usually like you but this is not ok. You need to stop trying to make excuses for this mouth breathing troll. You're bending over backwards to excuse the vile actions of a toxic pos as he actively harasses and abuses women.

[(Anonymous)]

Bruh Wako is in the wrong but you need to chill. Iff being calm and reasonable is a perfectly valid and time-honored tactic for dealing with resolute stupidity.

[iff_and_xor]

Honestly nice to know anyone’s noticed me enough to like me. So thank you for that.

I take your point. I will consider how I interact with him and others here.

I really don’t think what I said excuses Wako’s issues with tone or empathy in any way and I vastly prefer communities where people are more calm and reasonable and less insulting and abusive, even with trolls.

My reasoning is that if being insulting to Wako worked, he’d have left again already. Since he is here, I really dislike that personal insults and even calls for suicide become an acceptable and not infrequent part of commenting here. Not that they’re new, but I think people start to feel they’re justified whenever someone has what seems like a bad faith take.

Of course, responding with absolute silence is a great strategy, but it really only works if everyone agrees. And since people here cannot seem to help themselves from engaging, I didn’t think that my contribution was a negative part in all that mess.

[nanslice]

"this is not okay"

You're not the arbiter of what is or isn't okay.

[(Anonymous)]

My dude, absolutely no one is under the impression that Watchmen is about actual heroic people. But keep digging your hole, go on.

[(Anonymous)]

He says this while being the kind of man who probably thinks american psycho is about an alpha male putting women and gays in their place.

[(Anonymous)]

"Surely this person isn't using quotes sarcastically or ironically! Surely they missed the very obvious point of this movie! I am very smart!"

[(Anonymous)]

So I'm the original secret maker.

Um...I know and knew then that they weren't actually heroes. I understood the movie. The quotes were supposed to indicate that. Maybe it didn't come across that way? It's weird that I expressed a painful, visceral reaction to media and my intelligence was being questioned?

[iff_and_xor]

Hey, I got it entirely. They’re called heroes, they’re clearly not, “heroes” or so-called heroes is perfectly clear IMHO and I don’t think any more clarification was needed.

Maybe it’s a sore subject for people if they’ve seen lots of completely awful takes on the story? I don’t know, just speculating.

[thewakokid]

To be very clear, I really was not trying to question your intelligence. I was trying to make it clear that I WASN'T saying I thought I was smarter than you, I still don't think I'm smarter than you. I think missing the point is a thing a perfectly intellegent person can do, especially if you didn't know it was a deconstruction going in, and left due to an emotional / hormonal / viscerally reaction at the quarter way point.

I did think you missed the point that not only were they not heroes they were not being presented as such. That even in scare quotes calling them heroes' made me think that YOU thought someone or in some way the movie was still trying to present them as heroes. That's what I was driving at.

[(Anonymous)]

Wako doesn't understand the many literary uses of quotation marks, more news at 11

[(Anonymous)]

Ignore the Wako-troll he’s just going to double down and waste your time. You’re fine OP we all got what you were saying, so have a good evening and ignore the shit stirring idiot.

[(Anonymous)]

Secret made sense to me, wasn't hard to understand. I get why that scene would have been too much, your secret doesn't imply anything about your thoughts on the storyline...

[(Anonymous)]

Probably should have just used characters instead of heroes so even the most illiterate people wouldn't have a chance to wilfully misunderstand you.

[(Anonymous)]

No, this is an entirely normal reaction by you. Wako is a moron.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT but homie, OP isn't quoting anything. The quotes are there to highlight the very obvious narrative fact that the heroes of the story--read: the protagonists--are not in fact heroes--read: good guys. I suspect it wouldn't matter who did the shooting or why, as it was the action itself that OP didn't enjoy.

Maybe try rereading the post in good faith yourself before resorting to assuming OP doesn't understand extremely blunt storytelling.

[(Anonymous)]

We’re calling you stupid because you clearly failed to read OP’s secret properly at all, like the irony of you accusing someone of lacking in critical thinking is hilarious dude because you are displaying none right now.

[(Anonymous)]

All the characters in that film and you decide Rorschach? is the one who's supposed to be seen as heroic? Rorschach?? The intractable one? The 'you're locked in here with me' pouring hot oil on a guy's face one? The one who can't have a normal human interaction for longer than two minutes one? Rorschach? That's who you're picking as the one intended to be the hero?

[thewakokid]

Rorschach is the only one who fights because he can't tolerate the evil. All the rest of them are in it for some ego business. He's the only one willing to fight and die because of what he believes in. He's the only one that actually willingly sacrifices anything.

Also he murdered paedophiles.

You can argue about the measures he goes to reducing his heroism stat, but in terms of what makes a person heroic he comes closer to having the moral character of a hero than anyone else in the movie. At least any of the modern heroes. Nite Owl 1 blows him out of the water, obviously.

OH and I don't think he's supposed to be SEEN as heroic. Alan Moore was quite clear about that. "He is unkind to the nonce, what a total villain!" But I think if you define a hero as someone willing to fight and die for what he believes to be right, who dedicates his whole life to fighting the evils he sees, not because of an ego but because he cannot tolerate the world giving a free reign to evil, who never compromises, not even in the face of armageddon... No, I don't agree with all of his values, but how they have shaped him as a man... Yes he's heroic.

I mean he's also batshit insane, but you pretty much have to be insane to genuinely believe you can make a world steeped in so much evil better. Heroism in a world of villains is definitionally insanity.