Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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fandomsecrets2009-11-01 06:44 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-11-01 06:44 pm
[ SECRET POST #1031 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1031 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
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102.
[Friends]
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103.
[NCIS]
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104.
[Legally Blonde/Ace Attorney]
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105.
[De Cape & De Crocs]
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106.
[Monk]
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107.
[Mew]
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108.
[X-Factor]
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109.
[NCIS]
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110.
[Skins]
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111.
[Psychonauts]
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112.
[Better Off Ted]
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113.
[Fist of the North Star]
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114.
[Making Fiends]
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115.
[Death Note]
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116.
[Katekyo Hitman Reborn!]
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117.
[Heroes]
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118.
[House]
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119.
[Monk]
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120.
[craig ferguson ]
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121.
[Shugo Chara]
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122.
[Iron Man Armored Adventures]
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123.
[The Irrefutable Truth About Demons]
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124.
[Megaman X: Command Mission]
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125.
[American Idol]
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126.
[Sean Lennon and Dhani Harrison]
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127.
[James Sutton/Hollyoaks/Emmerdale]
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128.
[team fortress 2]
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129.
[Star Trek, Star Wars: KOTOR]
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130.
[Pushing Daisies]
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131.
[Harry Potter]
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132.
[Tekken, LoZ/SSBB]
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133.
[Fusion Fall]
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134.
[Terry Pratchett]
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135.
[House]
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136.
[Dragonheart]
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137.
[Ghost in the shell 2: Innocence]
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138.
[The Thick of It]
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139.
[Youtube Let's Play]
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140.
[Supernatural]
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141.
[YGO]
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142.
[Bandom]
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143.
[Michael Sheen, A Song of Ice and Fire]
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144.
[White Collar]
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145.
[Brooke Davis/Sam Winchester, Sam McPherson/Brooke McQueen]
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146.
[The Hot Chick]
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147.
[Torchwood, Fourteen]
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148.
[Sengoku Basara]
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149.
[Skins]
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150.
[Nathan Willett, CWK]
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151.
[Strictly Come Dancing]
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152.
[Wes Anderson's Fantastic Mr. Fox]
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153.
[The Office]
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154.
[Sgt. Frog]
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155.
[Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Harry Potter]
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156.
[Smallville/Legion of Super-Heroes/REBELS/Batman Begins/Scrubs/The Office]
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157.
[Phineas and ferb]
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158.
[Star Trek, Perry Rhodan]
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159.
[Shortpacked]
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160.
[Real Genius]
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161.
[Drake and Josh]
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162.
[Shakespeare in Love]
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163.
[ThatGuyWithTheGlasses.Com]
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164.
[Sesame Street]
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165.
[Phantom of the Opera (Leroux)/Lord of the Rings]
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166.
[Bored to Death]
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167.
[White Collar]
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168.
[Tombstone, Val Kilmer]
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169.
[Karla]
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170.
[Dylan McDermott]
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171.
[Jesus Christ/Lucifer]
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172.
[criminal minds]
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173.
[White Collar]
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174.
[The Sandman]
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175.
[Kate Beaton/Hark! A Vagrant/Mystery Solving Teens]
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176.
[Harry Potter/The Trial of Larry Langford]
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177.
[[Class of the Titans]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 20 pages, 485 secrets from Secret Submission Post #148.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Compare Zelda's body (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/File:Adult_Princess_Zelda_(Ocarina_of_Time).png) to Sheik's body (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/File:Sheik.png). There's no physical way a 'good costume' can change all that. Okay, it might be a magical transformation. But if you're going to go all the way to changing your muscle structure, bone structure, and internal organs (because Sheik's torso is a significantly different shape to Zelda's torso), why stop at the genitalia? Especially if you were being searched for. Wouldn't it be better for the 'disguise' to be as complete as possible?
Brawl is a different continuity - for one thing, it's not canon, for another thing, the Zelda characters in there (Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf) are based on Twilight Princess. NOT Ocarina of Time. It's like saying that because Link's guide in TP was a Twili, then that means that Navi ALSO had to be a Twili. After all, they served the same role, didn't they? Therefore, they must have precisely the same name/gender/species!
So no, saying that Brawl has any relevance towards OoT does NOT make sense.
different anon here
(Anonymous) 2009-11-02 03:26 am (UTC)(link)Hell, look at Disney's Mulan. When she's in armor her body is thicker and wider, her eyebrows are larger, her face is even more angular. This does not mean that she underwent magical transformation or grew a dick. It's a design element.
(recaptcha: femcliff exposes)
Re: different anon here
Mulan is also by a different studio, is in a different genre, and is an entirely different world/set of characters/scenario.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-11-02 04:56 am (UTC)(link)There is no Twilight Princess Sheik. There are only Super Smash Bros Sheik and OoT Shiek. The concept of the SSB series is that the characters of SSB are magically animated toy versions of preexisting video game characters. Though Shiek in Brawl has a bit of an aesthetic update to appear in Twilight Princess style, she's still a toy of an alter-ego whose only preexisting video game appearance is in OoT. It's like saying "Oh, Kirby's gender is never explicitly stated in Brawl. (this may not be true, but I played pretty much all of the game and I don't remember it being referenced) Even though Kirby is stated to be male in some of his own games, Brawl is a different continuity than the Kirby series, so you can't assume Brawl!Kirby is male. Some people think 'Kirby' is the name of the species, like 'yoshi' anyway, so Brawl could have a Female kirby." While actually, that argument isn't completely invalid, it's intuitive to assume that Brawl's Kirby is the male star of the game series. Similarly, you could make the argument "while Zelda undergoes a transformation, it's a different Zelda in a different continuity so you can't assume that it's the same transformation as the one she undergoes in OoT." and it's not completely invalid to say as much. However, to say there is NO SENSE in saying "well, transforming into Sheik is a technique that Zelda only ever uses in OoT, I'm going to assume that she's using the same technique in SSB" is an complete exaggeration. Especially seeing as how Zelda undergoes many of the physical changes she does in OoT. (thicker arms, different hair style, different eye color, etc.)
I guess I will concede that I can theoretically see why you might think that Zelda becomes male in OoT, but it really bugged me when you said there was no sense to make a decision one way or another by drawing parallels between two different continuities. No, Sheik being female in Brawl is not 100% conclusive proof that Sheik is female in OoT. It is, however, strong evidence in favor of Sheik being female in OoT.
no subject
And yes, Sheik has bandages around his chest. He also has bandages around his ARMS, and I doubt there's a pair of breasts under there. And if you explain the arm bandages as just being Sheikah wraps, then why not the chest ones?
And simply because she'd be completely disproportioned otherwise, if Zelda's arms are THAT slim, I doubt her legs are that muscular. Padding/light armour? Would significantly hinder your movements, and there's the sheer fact that Sheik's shoulders are at a further distance from his head than Zelda's.
And why would you animate a bulge in the first place? o.o I mean, other male characters don't have them either.
And it's not just muscle mass. It's hair style and colour, AND eye colour, AND skin colour (okay, s/he might be wearing magical contacts and a wig - how would a wig stay on with some of those jumps? Getting thrown around by Bongo Bongo? - but how would you explain the different skin colour?), AND it's physical ability (Sheik - can jump. Zelda, as evidenced by Ganon's castle - cannot). It's a bit more than just muscle mass.
And yes, but Brawl!Sheik was based on a design INTENDED for Twilight Princess. She was never intended to be a redesign of OoT!Sheik, she was intended to be a COMPLETELY different character. And that means it's no longer a valid argument for OoT. Plus, again, we don't know the full story. I RP with a Brawl!Sheik who was a seperate Sheikah who came to be sharing a body with Zelda before they were taken to the tournament, that's one explanation. Another is that TP!Zelda heard garbled accounts of her ancestor and decided to emulate it - but we know that facts can be obscured over the years. (Link to the Past is a PERFECT example - its prologue describes the Imprisoning War. That war is confirmed to be the events of OoT, but they do NOT match perfectly. The details have been lost to time.) It's possible that Sheik could have been a seperate person, or it was a duality deal, or something like that, and the story just got lost throught he passage of history. Uses the imagination to come up with a plausible backstory. It's fun :)
Okay, maybe it was hyperbole to say that it made NO sense. It doesn't make much sense to me, at least. (And I've seen one too many people argue that OoT!Sheik is female because "SHE HAS BEWBS IN BRAWL!!" (no joke, I've actually seen it written like that!) to consider the Brawl = OoT argument much, I must confess.) Based on my interpretation of the evidence, I see OoT!Sheik as, at the LEAST, having a physically male body. I just don't see how it's plausible for a non-magical transformation to change Zelda's shoulder-to-hip ratio, musculature, and colouring.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-11-02 08:22 am (UTC)(link)perhaps the arm bandages are there to keep from drawing attention to her bound chest. Impa wears no bandages whatsoever, so it's hard to say that bandages are a common sheikah fashion.
There's actually absolutely no difference whatsoever in Zelda and Sheik's vertical proportions in the pictures you linked. I overlaid them using her eyes as a reference and while Sheik's shoulders are broader, they are at exactly the same height relative to the eyes. The top of the heads matches up, the length of the arms match up, the height of the hips match up and the rough location of the feet match up (guessing where Zelda's feet are because she's wearing a dress. Sheik's shoulders are broader, Sheik's wider around the upper torso, and Sheik has thicker arms, but Shiek's hips and lower torso are roughly the same width as Zelda's and if Sheik were to close his/her legs, they could easily fit under the dress.
None of the other male characters have clothing that hug their body so tightly. If a guy were wearing cloths that were that form-fitting you'd see a bulge.
Skin color could easily be explained by makeup. That orange skin looks more like a bottle tan than any natural skin tone anyway. And were it a wig, it would stay on for the same reason the turban-hat-thing stays on it would be kind of hard for it to slip off while the turban-hat-thing remained in place. Also, Zelda is wearing fancier, less athletic clothing. you try jumping in a body suit and then try jumping in a dress and nice shoes and tell me the difference.
So we've established somewhere along the lines that the change from Zelda to Sheik (be it a change in costume or a change in body) is somehow executed magically because it's impossible to switch clothes that fast. Since she changes clothes quickly in both OoT and Brawl, we assume that in both games she is using a magic transformation technique. Is it far fetched to say that she is using the same technique in both games? Assuming that Brawl Zelda is using a transformation technique that Twilight Princess Zelda is capable of and that Twilight Princess Zelda exists in a world that is OoT's future, is it nonsensical to assume that it's a technique that Twilight Princess Zelda learned through the Royal Family, that was passed down for generations from her ancestor, OoT Zelda? The various different Links sure all seem to know the same spinny sword technique, and they don't even share an ancestor to pass that technique down through.
no subject
And yes, with only two Sheikah, it's hard to make judgement on what's usual for them. However, that doesn't preclude Sheik being a Sheikah. For instance, Link, Zelda, and Malon are all Hylians, but they don't wear precisely the same sorts of clothes. Impa and Sheik could easily hold different positions, different rankings, different roles...
The fact that Zelda and Sheik are the same height doesn't prove anything. Like you said, Sheik's shoulders are a lot wider - different body shapes. I'm the same height as one of my cousins, that doesn't make us the same person.
And nope, Ingo wears tights for his outfit when he's brainwashed by Ganondorf. No bulge. REALISTICALLY, yeah, they probably should be, but this game isn't rendered or illustrated with 100% realism. There are still constants within the art style, but it's not exactly photorealistic.
So you're saying that medieval Hyrule has contacts AND bottle tan? Hmm. Are you sure magic isn't an easier explanation? And if my life depended on it, hell. I'd kick off those shoes, pull up that skirt, and jump like... well, like my life depended on it.
And nah, not nonsensical. But I imagine that the motivation behind it would be entirely different. TP!Zelda wasn't hiding for her life. OoT!Zelda was. If I was going for the best possible disguise, I'd want it to be as complete as possible - if that meant being an entirely different race and sex, so be it. I don't really see what the point of this argument is? Yes, I agree that it's a magical transformation in both cases, but it's clearly not the SAME magical transformation. Different body, outfit, hair, stuff like that. Even the colouring is slightly different to OoT!Sheik's.
Even if it's the same technique, that doesn't mean it's transforming into the same body.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-11-02 10:21 am (UTC)(link)All I'm saying is Brawl Zelda undergoes a very similar transformation (broader sholders, thicker upper torso, muscular arms, different eye color, different hair color and style) while still retaining her gender. I think there's at least some logic behind the argument that it is the same technique, and it isn't an invalid argument to say that because Sheik is female in Brawl, there's a good chance that Sheik is female in OoT.
Whether or not the body was changed, I don't remember their being any evidence within the game that Sheik had a different mind or personality than Zelda, so I imagine Sheik always thought of her true form as being the female Zelda, whether or not she was in the body of a man. I don't think of the character as being two different people, whether or not she is in two different bodies.
no subject
And remember, this series DOES have magically changing bodies as a matter of fact. Twilight Princess has Link changing into a wolf and Midna changing into an imp. Majora's Mask has Kafei changing into a child and Link changing into a Deku, Zora, Goron, AND the Fierce Deity. It's pretty safe to say that Goron Link actually WAS a Goron, he just wasn't wearing a Goron suit!
And that's where things like imagination come in to play! Why does Sheik cover his face and wear bandages? Why do Kokiri wear green hats? I don't know. Make something up. (Also, you can actually see Sheik's face in parts - from certain angles in that first encounter at the Temple of Time. His face does NOT look like Zelda's. Different shape of the eyebrows and mouth. Granted, it's N64 graphics and there are some similarities, but ALL the characters share those particular similarities.)
And I'm not arguing that it's the same technique, I'm just saying the transformation is different. Just because the transformation is into a female body in Brawl doesn't mean the transformation is into a female body in OoT. Just because Link changes into a wolf in TP doesn't mean he changes into a wolf in Link to the Past (and that IS via the same mechanism).
And well, no, but there isn't anything to contradict that, either. I prefer thinking of Sheik as a separate person, you're entirely welcome to think of Sheik as Zelda in a male body. Like I said earlier, what canon we are given is very ambiguous.
Look, I don't think we're getting anywhere - I doubt I'm going to convince you and you're DEFINITELY not going to convince me. Do you think maybe we should leave it here? You can believe whatever you want to believe, and I'll continue interpreting the evidence to come up with male!Sheik.