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fandomsecrets2009-11-10 05:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-11-10 05:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #1040 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1040 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
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102.
[That Guy With the Glasses]
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103.
[Doctor Who]
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104.
[Hetalia/Say Anything]
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105.
[Tekkonkinkreet]
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106.
[Persona 3 and 4]
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107.
[Iron Man Armoured Adventures]
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108.
[Julia Nunes/Jake/Amir]
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109.
[Where the Wild Things Are]
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110.
[Zeta Gundam]
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111.
[Supernatural]
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112.
[500 Days of Summer]
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113.
[The Jungle Book]
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114.
[Kal Ho Naa Ho, Amélie]
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115.
[Eli Roth/Blueberries/Inglorious Basterds]
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116.
[Supernatural]
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117.
[Heroes]
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118.
[X-Factor]
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119.
[V (2009)]
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120.
[Lackadaisy]
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121.
[Battlestar Galactica]
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122.
[Arrested Development]
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123.
[Star Trek XI]
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124.
[Supernatural, Heroes]
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125.
[iCarly]
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126.
[Gorillaz]
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127.
[Gundam 00]
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128.
[The Spoony Experiment/That Guy With the Glasses]
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129.
[Rocky Horror Picture Show]
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130.
[Giftpia/Captain Rainbow]
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131.
[The Twelve Kingdoms]
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132.
[Mina and the Count]
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133.
[Drake and Josh]
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134.
[Newsies, Sloan]
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135.
[Cillian Murphy & Liam Neeson]
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136.
[Rachel Leigh Cook]
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137.
[Glee/Apollo Justice]
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138.
[Drake and Josh]
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139.
[Mad Men]
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140.
[Haley Joel Osment]
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141.
[SMT III: Nocturne]
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142.
[Girl Genius]
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143.
[Ghostbusters]
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144.
[Zombieland]
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145.
[Thomas Kretschmann & Adrien Brody]
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146.
[My Girl]
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147.
[Rivers Cuomo/Sara Bareilles ]
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148.
[there she is]
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149.
[Sherlock Holmes]
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150.
[Utena]
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151.
[Flash Forward]
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152.
[Team Fortress 2]
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153.
[Michael Buble]
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154.
[Steve Winwood/Val Kilmer]
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155.
[NCIS]
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156.
[Tim Kring, Heroes]
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157.
[My Life As A Teenage Robot]
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158.
[The Joker Blogs]
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159.
[Moulin Rouge]
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160.
[The Tudors]
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161.
[World of Quest]
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162.
[Star Trek: Voyager]
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163.
[NCIS]
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164.
[Wrestling]
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165.
[Alex Rider: Stormbreaker]
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166.
[McLeod's Daughters]
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167.
[merlin/kaamelott]
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168.
[Heard]
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169.
[Buffy, Torchwood and Firefly]
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170.
[Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends/Cartoon Network Fusion Fall]
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171.
[The Mighty Boosh]
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172.
[Flashforward]
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173.
[Heroes/Torchwood/The Dark Knight]
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174.
[Billy Bibbit/Angela Orosco]
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175.
[Eastwick]
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176.
[Fefe Dobson & Michael Seater]
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177.
[MouseHunt/Avatar: The Last Airbender]
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178.
[flight of the conchords]
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179.
[Letter Bee]
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180.
[Dragnet]
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181.
[Simon Schama]
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182.
[Cirque du Freak, Doctor Who]
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183.
[Hurt]
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184.
[Welcome to Dongmakgol]
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185.
[Inspector Lewis/Laurence Fox/Alan Rickman]
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186.
[Bleach/V for Vendetta]
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187.
[The Dresden Files]
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188.
[stay]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 282 secrets from Secret Submission Post #149.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - why don't you check the comm you listed as the fandom? ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Oh man this is so my issue too.
I'm left at a loss for why TPTB didn't bother to incorporate some of that in as well.
Yeah. TBTB wanted everyone to think Sam had gone evil, and hid Sam's love for Dean to do it (until 4.21 showing that out of everything, his longing for a normal life, need to believe he's good, need for power, yadda yadda, Dean's love/opinion/acceptance is the core of Sam's psyche), but the problem is the writers forgot to show and tell the rest after the reveal. THEY know how much Sam loves Dean, or how Kripke said in an interview how much Sam hates himself for hurting Dean, but a lot of that for some reason isn't making it to the final product. Like the deleted scenes in Free to Be showing Sam and Dean mistaking other people for each other and being CRUSHED. I hated to think so pessimistically, but I coincide the loss of consistently showing both brothers' motivations and points of view to the loss of Kim Manners.
He hit his lowest point in terms of sheer inhuman scariness in 4x21
I find it interesting you say that when he drained a human in 4.22. (Much like Lucifer Rising being so obvious what it's about in the title: "yeah yeah, Lucifer's here, MOVING ON WHAT ABOUT DEAN AND SAM THAT'S ALL I REALLY CARE ABOUT")
Plus, I'm kind of left going "what, that's it?" at the semi-evil Sam we did get...When they were building up to evil!Sam, I was expecting something a bit more, I don't know, evil.
And I wonder if that's the point, Sam doesn't have it in him to be evil, only dark (and seriously, seriously fucked up). Castiel/Uriel/Zach/Lucifer/Meg/Azazel/even John -- all of them foisted hideous expectations on Sam, and of Sam on Dean, without ever really attempting to understand Sam himself.
no subject
I disagree with the 4x21 assessment, though. I think that it did show how much Dean's opinion still meant to Sam, but it was very much Dean's opinion on Sam's own terms. It felt pretty unrealistic for me to try to buy that Sam really cared about Dean in 4x22 when he'd been so cold to his brother for the entire season and honestly felt himself superior, as proven many times. Not just in S4, either - Sam had an element of that to him even back in S1. That whole "I'm better than you" speech in Asylum didn't come from no where either, after all... It was just before only one aspect of his feelings towards Dean, and a relatively small one, but his respect for his brother decreased significantly as his resentment grew. And if they wanted us to believe that Sam was doing any of it for Dean, they should have done a better job of displaying that.
I think Manners had a HUGE impact on the subtler elements of the show and Supernatural is lessened by his loss. It seems like the increase in juvenile humor started around the same time, as well. Very unfortunate, especially since they don't seem to have anyone who can really step in and pull things back together now. :(
He drained a human in 4x22, but he was quite obviously conflicted about and felt it to be a necessary, if terrible, evil. Sam in 4x21, though? Man, he was out of control and rageful in his fight with Dean and then to strangle his brother? *shivers* THAT was a scary thiiiiiis close to dark side Sam! 4x22? Eh, his crime there was that he let name calling stir his temper. It's not exactly his best moment, but it doesn't have the same ring of OMG that the end scene of 4x21 did.
I don't think Sam EVER had the possibility of going evil for the sake of being evil. I think though that he was quite capable of going lawful evil, all without even realizing that he had crossed the moral horizon. Every action that Sam did in S4 was because he thought it was the right one. Of course, he also lied to himself about his own motivations (he DID love the power and control, even though he denied that) and it was that self delusion that made him dangerous. Sam was capable of doing terrible, terrible things in the name of vengeance. That his major crime was something he didn't even mean to do, something that was directly counter to everything he strove for, leaves me feeling that the whole dark!Sam storyline was pretty wishywashy.
IMHO, a lot of Sam's problems in S2 were because he did know he had a thread of darkness in him - that temper of his - but he didn't know how far down it went. His darkness in S2, though? Incredibly human. Unfortunately, he didn't seem to realize that at the time and thought his very natural anger and frustration was because of having been tainted. All those horrible expectations but IMHO, none of them would have mattered if Sam had known himself. But a Winchester actually believing the best of himself? That goes against their family creed, doesn't it? XD
no subject
It actually struck me as fairly IC given the Mystery Spot preview of what type of removed person Sam would become, as well as his erratic behavior in S1's Wendigo and his pathetic mess in Playthings. Keeping things in and making them boil and grow. Only this time it stretched to Dean as well. The self-preservation made sense. Sam loved Dean with all of him, gave/prayed/loved/searched with everything he had, and Dean died, in front of him, and because of him, just like Jess. And Dean, arguably, by that point meant more to Sam than Jess ever had, so the aftermath? Pretty fucked up from the hints in S3/4 and the scenes in IKWYDLS. I see Sam reacting in a way that as much as having Dean back was wonderful, a part of him had already cemented it wouldn't ever risk itself like that again. He didn't trust that he'd have to go through what he did before, again, lesson learned, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me -- there will be no third time, no way no how. I think the expectations for Sam to bounce right back with Dean's return and embrace it were sort of silly. Sam is a person of ritual and habit, clings even tighter when falling apart. Sam signed on for a suicide mission that could destroy him, and having Dean back temporarily shocked him out (oh, Monster Movie, the only happy episode of S4), but not for long. And then Metamorphosis, Sam shut down further; ItGPSW, same thing. After S2, Sam stopped talking about his freaky problems in need to rescue Dean, S4 he stopped talking about much of anything. Unfortunately, Sam lived so much in his head he automatically assumed Dean would get what he was doing (Criss Angel), and Sam's communication skills were complete fail to let Dean in. I don't think Dean really got how much his death destroyed even after IKWYDLS, thinking he could never mean what Sam meant to him, to Sam. As Kripke said pre-S4, Dean came back to "an entirely different world," but expected it to be the same. Not the real world, but his world with Sam, and he didn't want to see it because after hell, he needed the Sam he knew. Sam and Dean's expectations of each other ended up stretching the other too thin, and wearing them both out.
He drained a human in 4x22, but he was quite obviously conflicted about and felt it to be a necessary, if terrible, evil. Sam in 4x21, though? Man, he was out of control and rageful in his fight with Dean and then to strangle his brother? *shivers* THAT was a scary thiiiiiis close to dark side Sam! 4x22? Eh, his crime there was that he let name calling stir his temper. It's not exactly his best moment, but it doesn't have the same ring of OMG that the end scene of 4x21 did.
IA. Last thread of derailed off the tracks. It's just so rare for me to find someone who thinks this too. One of the (many) reasons I quickly stopped checking out televisionwithoutpity boards last summer. Oi.
I think Manners had a HUGE impact on the subtler elements of the show and Supernatural is lessened by his loss. It seems like the increase in juvenile humor started around the same time, as well. Very unfortunate, especially since they don't seem to have anyone who can really step in and pull things back together now. :(
Yeahhhhh. The consistency bothers me. Why S1-3 will trump S4/5 for me, as much as I enjoyed Sam's crazy in S4 and *some* of the stuff in S5. Like Mark's Lucifer = A+.
no subject
I totally agree that expecting Sam to bounce back and be normal after Dean got back was too much to be expected, but I still expected some measure of change to his behavior, you know? If nothing else, some overprotectiveness for a bit. It might have been nice to have had that overprotectiveness, only to have things skitter to a halt at Yellow Fever... I mean, a month or so after Dean comes back, Sam almost loses him again? If anything were going to rip into Sam's psyche, it should have been that. But even by that point, he didn't seem to really care. (Then again, it was Yellow Fever and NO ONE was in character or even seemed to have a shred of empathy.)
I don't think Dean really got how much his death destroyed
And that's the heart of the Winchester tragedy, I think. Or Dean's, perhaps. Dean really had NO IDEA how much he meant to Sam (or John, for that matter). That's a huge measure of how fucked up he was - the fact that he really did think himself worthless except for keeping John and Sam safe and, as best possible, sane. To me, that's why his deal wasn't selfish - IMHO, Dean didn't ever think he had a choice and he never imagined that Sam would be as effected by his death as was the case. I think he STILL isn't aware of it, for all that he's moved away from hanging every shred of his self worth on his commitment to his family. Which is healthy, sure, because no one should be that wrapped up and codependent, but it's kind of sad that he never got that validation and it's all due to miscommunication.
I think Sam stopped talking about his freakiness because there was less fear that he was a freak, since his visions had stopped and YED was dead. And yeah, the deal was something of a distraction. XD I think you've got a fantastic point in that Dean needed Sam 1.0 when he got back from Hell (just as Sam needed Dean 1.0) and neither of them were able to give the other what he desired.
One of the (many) reasons I quickly stopped checking out televisionwithoutpity boards last summer.
What was the issue with TWOP, out of curiosity? I stopped checking in there because the brother vs. brother wank got to be too much for me.
Why S1-3 will trump S4/5 for me, as much as I enjoyed Sam's crazy in S4 and *some* of the stuff in S5.
So far, I think S4 is my favorite season - provided I ignore the existence of certain episodes that I really can't stand. (Yellow Fever and ASS being the primary two here, but Family Remains also annoyed me a good deal.) I love the plot with Heaven and the whispers about Dean's role as the Righteous Man and Sam's slow descent fascinates me. S1-S2 though had individual episodes that pretty much trounce anything in S4 (with the possible exception of 4x01 because I loved that ep to bits). I mean, come on! Asylum? Scarecrow? Faith?? Devil's Trap? Those are amazing!! S2 had IMToD! AHBL! BUaBS. I think I need say nothing else.
I've a distinct love/hate relationship with S3 though. There's a LOT about it that annoys me. The misogyny seems strongest in that season and both Sam and Dean felt incredibly off to me. Plus, you had some ridiculous moments of stupid!Dean - Long Distance Caller? Really, Dean? But then you also have Sam losing his shoe and Mystery Spot and JiB and aargh. I'm conflicted about S3. XD
And quite leery of S5. I liked the first two episodes, was amused by 5x03 but thought it had MAJOR issues (a whorehouse? REALLY? *does not approve*), but was disappointed with 5x04 onwards. Except last week, that was a bit of all right.
no subject
Some people were only JUST getting Sam vs Pride in 3x01. *head desk* I mean, yes it was symbolic, but then you'd have Dean vs Lust, and Pride wasn't alone when he attacked Sam. It's a minor thing but that's one thing that stood out to me that I can remember that sort of made me roll my eyes seeing everyone jump on it like it was a new thing.
I wandered back in recently when I heard the brotherly bonds thread was reopened, hopeful. It's still sort of an angry place, but not like S4, which had a lot of just. plain. anger. I feel so bad for the mods.
I've a distinct love/hate relationship with S3 though. There's a LOT about it that annoys me. The misogyny seems strongest in that season and both Sam and Dean felt incredibly off to me. Plus, you had some ridiculous moments of stupid!Dean - Long Distance Caller? Really, Dean? But then you also have Sam losing his shoe and Mystery Spot and JiB and aargh. I'm conflicted about S3. XD
S3 had some of the best moments EVER, Mystery Spot, Bad Day, AVSC, Fresh Blood ("I'm staring down eternity, alone. Can you think of a worse hell?"), TioMS, and so on. I had a huge problem with the misogyny and even the writers hated the addition of Bela and dumbing Sam and Dean down before her, though, too, but I loved a lot of the foreshadowing and character moments despite them. Like Malleus Malleficrum, where Sam thinks he had to be like Dean, but IT'S NOT DEAN AT ALL, it's only someone who Dean has convinced Sam he is by always protecting him, but Dean doesn't correct him. But mostly it had me at this ambiguity that S4 lacked. LDC didn't have Dean as OC and dumb to me so much as child-like and desperate like a callback to his plea in S1's Home. And I liked Ghostfacers because having sarcastic/WHY ME-and-irritated-at-incompetence!Dean AND bad-ass-scary-big-brother!Dean together was like, my dream come true. &hearts But S5 gave me Jo/Ellen/Rufus so I'm still clinging to hope for it.
I love the plot with Heaven and the whispers about Dean's role as the Righteous Man and Sam's slow descent fascinates me.
I loved Dean having a role in the myth arc, but my problem in season four is the messy way the writers pick up, drop or crap all over things like ambiguity. Vampires not automatically being evil, werewolves not being monsters, etc, were all prevalent in S1-3, and suddenly don't apply. Or destiny, that definitely hasn't gotten any better in S5 -- IMO the events in MatEoTB Dean went crazy trying to prevent only happened BECAUSE HE TRIED TO PREVENT THEM, but apparently that's just a plot hole and not intentional. Plus they keep changing their mind about the angels and hosts, which is irritating. I don't mind adding to the mythos, but at least in my polytheistic SPN in S1-3 things still made sense.
disappointed with 5x04 onwards. Except last week, that was a bit of all right.
You didn't like The End, or do you mean 'stuff after 5.04'? Curious Case was such messy script, and from what I understand it was a guest writer focusing too much on the OCs and Sera tried to fix it. But it had wayyyy too much going on that EVERYTHING was underwhelmed.
Changing Channels was the first time I saw Dean and Sam genuinely liking each other again. I see the care they have for each other every episode (lol), but like S4 where they slowly stopped *liking* each other, this episode they enjoyed each other, without heavy obligations and baggage attached. I haven't seen it since their time as Smith and Wesson in IaTL. When Dean was shot, they clung. When Sam was hurt, Dean took no joy in it, not a smile, only horrified and wanted to know if he was okay. When the Trickster showed, Dean took charge and ordered to the *demigod*/angel nothing else was happening "until Sam has opposable thumbs." And the end, where they agreed for all it's numbing cheerfulness, a part of them missed the fake world (hi Monster Movie ref) of just them and no one trying to tear them apart. And of course, their resolution to ever fight.
no subject
IA again, it didn't come from nowhere. But Asylum has different connotations to me in that scene than being only about how secretly Sam resents and thinks little of Dean. It read off as Sam wanted more than ANYthing to violently go at John and there was only Dean. It had been this huge growing thing between them since they got back together again, John was a literal block between Sam and Dean being partners and brothers (ex: Bugs), the bros came off of Home where Sam hated Dean knowing about his freakishness, Mary's depressing message (and even more depressing meaning reveal in S4), he learns everything started in his nursery, Dean saved him 2/3 times, again, plus the reveal where Dean carried Sam from the fire. Much like the cop in the intro who shot his wife, there was some truth in Sam's rage, but to *that* extent? I didn't think so. Typical younger sibling 'I'm better than you' magnified, frustration and insecurity over Dean's loyalty to John, and extreme grief over Jess's violent murder that Sam hadn't let out, and probably blamed on John too, and his need for some kind of answers for her death that John refused to give. All of it leading up to their temporary and healthy break and reconnection in Scarecrow. (I sort of had the same thing in Sex and Violence comparing the victims to Dean and Sam. Hell yeah there was some vicious dislike mounting between them, but there was truth and exaggeration both in their smack down.)
I think he started openly seeing Dean as weak and unlikeable as S4 went on, jealous even of Dean's approval and support from heaven that Sam wanted so badly. But I also think he found the opposite true: that Dean was stronger than him despite everything, otherwise I don't see how else Sam had all that anger (GGY, at the end, Sam admits his temper was knowing Dean was right, 4.22 he admits to Ruby that Dean was right to be mad, and right about everything), in addition to still resolutely wanting to be with Dean even if it detracted from Lilith-hunting. Sam is driven and narrow-minded and stubborn as hell, if he really thought Dean a hindrance and weak compared to his revenge-hunt, Sam would have taken off. It's there I can't not believe Dean, and love, was still pivotal to Sam's motivations. Largely about power and self-absorption, but competing just about evenly with fucked up love and desperation.
no subject
Oh, agreed! I don't think it was even resentment of Dean so much as resentment of other people's perceptions of him and the grating feeling of being forced back into his own life. It would be like wearing a shirt that's now a couple of sizes too small. Even if it was once a favorite, it's not going to be comfortable unless you stretch it out a lot first.
I also think that a bunch of Sam's issues with John came out there. IMHO, Sam takes a LOT of his issues with John out on Dean, or reads into Dean's actions what he would have seen from John. But that to me goes back to Sam not being quite honest with himself - John was unapproachable and, after S1, not even someone he could rail against. I think Sam was furious with his father but had no outlet to address that, especially because IMHO he felt as guilty as Dean did about John's death - and that would only have grown worse over time when he found out more of what John knew. Dean though was an acceptable target and, come on, it's Dean, in some ways, he was asking for it. Dean's a classic older sibling and they can be bossy and know it all (totally an older sib here, myself! Four younger siblings!), and it wouldn't have been hard to project his anger with his father onto the relatively normal sibling rivalry. And of course, it would have been even easier than usual since Dean wasn't just an older brother - he practically raised Sam.
You've a really good point about Sam perhaps resenting Dean from saving him so often, for that matter... It would have proven to Sam exactly how out of practice he was and everywhere he went, it would have been Dean saving him all over again. (Wendigo and Scarecrow must have been rather satisfying, after the "OMGYOUALMOSTDIED D:" emotional wave died down.)
jealous even of Dean's approval and support from heaven that Sam wanted so badly
Very much agreed. Especially because Sam had always been the believer between them, had been the one who prayed each night.
Dean was stronger than him despite everything, otherwise I don't see how else Sam had all that anger
Mm. I think he sort of realized this, but it was countered with the fact that Dean had, in his mind, broken. Dean would have been incredibly strong to have survived 40 years in Hell, 30 of which were constant torture (and I'm sure the remaining decade wasn't exactly pleasant either). Just to have come out of that still sane, I don't even have words. And Sam's a smart cookie; he had to have thought that through and realized what it meant. But I'm not sure he ever saw Dean as stronger than Sam, so much as different. Weaker and in need of protection, and in 4x22, worthy of that protection. Sam was going to sacrifice himself. Redemption through death. I think he came to a different conclusion in 5x01, when he realized how weak he had been.
Sam's need to keep Dean with him is a complicated one. IMHO, that was partially obligation - especially later in the season. He panicked when he thought Dean was leaving him in 4x04, but was incredibly blase about the same possibility in 4x18. He showed no hesitation in leaving in 4x21, for good reason when he left the first time, but his second departure was much colder. So love, yes, and devotion, and all of it very fucked up, but to me, the desire for power and revenge outweighed the love. Maybe not by much, and maybe mostly at moments such as the end of 4x21, but it still happened. (Which, coincidentally, were the moments when I was most scared for Sam.)
no subject
And Sam's a smart cookie
Sam's brain is much like the Knife that Can Kill Anything Except When It Can't. Sometimes you see why he's Dean's #2 and went to Stanford. Other times, he's just... wow. Dean and Sam deserve each other that way. :p