Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-11-10 05:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-11-10 05:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #1040 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1040 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
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102.
[That Guy With the Glasses]
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103.
[Doctor Who]
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104.
[Hetalia/Say Anything]
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105.
[Tekkonkinkreet]
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106.
[Persona 3 and 4]
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107.
[Iron Man Armoured Adventures]
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108.
[Julia Nunes/Jake/Amir]
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109.
[Where the Wild Things Are]
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110.
[Zeta Gundam]
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111.
[Supernatural]
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112.
[500 Days of Summer]
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113.
[The Jungle Book]
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114.
[Kal Ho Naa Ho, Amélie]
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115.
[Eli Roth/Blueberries/Inglorious Basterds]
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116.
[Supernatural]
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117.
[Heroes]
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118.
[X-Factor]
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119.
[V (2009)]
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120.
[Lackadaisy]
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121.
[Battlestar Galactica]
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122.
[Arrested Development]
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123.
[Star Trek XI]
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124.
[Supernatural, Heroes]
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125.
[iCarly]
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126.
[Gorillaz]
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127.
[Gundam 00]
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128.
[The Spoony Experiment/That Guy With the Glasses]
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129.
[Rocky Horror Picture Show]
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130.
[Giftpia/Captain Rainbow]
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131.
[The Twelve Kingdoms]
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132.
[Mina and the Count]
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133.
[Drake and Josh]
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134.
[Newsies, Sloan]
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135.
[Cillian Murphy & Liam Neeson]
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136.
[Rachel Leigh Cook]
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137.
[Glee/Apollo Justice]
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138.
[Drake and Josh]
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139.
[Mad Men]
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140.
[Haley Joel Osment]
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141.
[SMT III: Nocturne]
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142.
[Girl Genius]
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143.
[Ghostbusters]
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144.
[Zombieland]
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145.
[Thomas Kretschmann & Adrien Brody]
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146.
[My Girl]
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147.
[Rivers Cuomo/Sara Bareilles ]
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148.
[there she is]
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149.
[Sherlock Holmes]
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150.
[Utena]
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151.
[Flash Forward]
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152.
[Team Fortress 2]
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153.
[Michael Buble]
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154.
[Steve Winwood/Val Kilmer]
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155.
[NCIS]
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156.
[Tim Kring, Heroes]
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157.
[My Life As A Teenage Robot]
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158.
[The Joker Blogs]
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159.
[Moulin Rouge]
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160.
[The Tudors]
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161.
[World of Quest]
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162.
[Star Trek: Voyager]
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163.
[NCIS]
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164.
[Wrestling]
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165.
[Alex Rider: Stormbreaker]
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166.
[McLeod's Daughters]
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167.
[merlin/kaamelott]
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168.
[Heard]
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169.
[Buffy, Torchwood and Firefly]
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170.
[Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends/Cartoon Network Fusion Fall]
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171.
[The Mighty Boosh]
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172.
[Flashforward]
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173.
[Heroes/Torchwood/The Dark Knight]
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174.
[Billy Bibbit/Angela Orosco]
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175.
[Eastwick]
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176.
[Fefe Dobson & Michael Seater]
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177.
[MouseHunt/Avatar: The Last Airbender]
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178.
[flight of the conchords]
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179.
[Letter Bee]
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180.
[Dragnet]
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181.
[Simon Schama]
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182.
[Cirque du Freak, Doctor Who]
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183.
[Hurt]
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184.
[Welcome to Dongmakgol]
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185.
[Inspector Lewis/Laurence Fox/Alan Rickman]
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186.
[Bleach/V for Vendetta]
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187.
[The Dresden Files]
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188.
[stay]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 282 secrets from Secret Submission Post #149.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - why don't you check the comm you listed as the fandom? ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
You recognize this? I gotta say, I'm surprised. I apologize for having misjudged you.
the absolute refusal on the part of some to see the incredibly dark things he was doing in S4 as actually bad things
Well, I can only speak for me, but any rationalization I've done is because I identify so personally with Sam. I know how desperation to escape the suffocating expectations of family caused me to escape to a college 1,000 miles from home, how family's total disparagement of what I want out of life lead to feelings of isolation and despair, being told by my family that my only value is in doing what they want.
So in S1/S2 in particular, when dealing with family, Sam always did things I had done/would do, and I waited patiently for the day when Sam would become his own person, carve his own place in the world. When Sam seemed to be more independent in S4, I was glad for it and maybe rationalized some things, although I still find it difficult to see Sam's behavior as "incredibly dark, bad things" until at least maybe 4.19. But looking back now I see that was never going to happen, Sam was always going to be cannon fodder for the demon/angel story. That's where my frustration comes from.
no subject
You recognize this? I gotta say, I'm surprised. I apologize for having misjudged you.
It's all good. :) I really do adore Sam, but I like him because he's flawed and has made mistakes, some of them huge. I was incredibly frustrated in S4 that TPTB didn't incorporate some measure of Sam's love and protectiveness into his reasonings - that was what drove him throughout S3 and was a HUGE part of his motivations in S1 and S2. He's always been prone to crave revenge, sure, but come on! This is also the kid who in Faith was so driven by love that he forced a miracle to occur. He's brave, and smart, and so utterly certain that whatever he does won't matter in terms of his own personal redemption because of his past failures that I want to wrap him up in a blanket and just feed him cookies and Mexican hot chocolate for a bit.
That's what makes him all the more heartbreaking to me; killing Lilith was supposed to be his one big moment of redemption and from Sam's perspective, EVERYTHING seemed to be leading to it being his destiny to do so. It had to be seen as a sign of validation that the one demon he most wanted to kill was the one spurring on the breaking of the seals. Even Chuck seemed to confirm it! And what happened as a result? That's Sam's tragedy - he tries so hard to do good, but fails in his execution.
I know I come down hard on Sam sometimes, but that's primarily because I like discussing a character's flaws as well as their strengths and for a bit there, it felt like everyone was forgetting that Sam actually did have flaws and had made mistakes - and serious ones at that. Which sort of left me going WTF because, honest, what is interesting at all about a character who does nothing wrong?
I get that people identify a lot with their favorite characters, and I recognize that I fall more in line with Dean's perspective than Sam's. I gave up a good five years to help my family because it was my duty and they were my family and it was the right thing to do. So to me, it was always Dean that felt like he needed to break out and be his own person and I see Dean as being the more codependent of the two. Sam did escape, more than once, and showed very few signs of missing his estranged family. Which, in Sam's defense, I think was very much a measure of self preservation. I've also been estranged from close family members and it hurts, a lot. In fact, given his behavior in S4, I'd almost argue that distancing himself from what he sees as hurtful emotions is pretty much his MO in those circumstances. Not that he doesn't still feel the hurt and perceived rejection, just that he refuses to allow himself the space to dwell on those and thus process them. It's that whole exchange in 4x16 all over again - Dean saying that he's tired and Sam arguing back to not get tired, but instead to get angry. Anger was a productive emotion; apathy was not. It can lead to a nasty cycle though, especially as he became more isolated.
I see that was never going to happen, Sam was always going to be cannon fodder for the demon/angel story
I'd argue that both Sam and Dean are cannon fodder. My hope for S5 is that they'll continue on this free will vs. destiny kick - and that free will will triumph. Sam has always had a tendency to believe in predetermination, whereas Dean has traditionally been aligned with personal choice. (Ironic, considering their standings with John!) I want to see Sam come to recognize that he has perfect free will as well - that he might have messed up with Lilith but that it wasn't an event destined to occur and he can reject his role with Lucifer. Sam embracing his own free will, as it were. Zachariah and Lucifer very much want Sam and Dean to fall neatly in line with their plans, but that's the beauty of the human spirit. The Winchesters can still tell the angels to fuck off because at the end of the day, it's their choice to make.
In other words - I want these cannon fodder pawns to kick ass and take names. :D
no subject
Exactly right, Sam's tragedy is his failure, his string of failures really.
Sam actually did have flaws and had made mistakes - and serious ones at that
I never thought that Sam didn't have flaws, I just never thought "being evil" was one of them. He certainly has made mistakes, many of them in fact. At least one major one for each season. What would frustrate me was the fandom reaction that Sam was "evil" for having made mistakes, as if that isn't something human beings do.
to me, it was always Dean that felt like he needed to break out and be his own person
Who is more their own man than Dean Winchester? Except maybe Chuck Norris. Sure, Dean can be co-dependent, but no one is more certain of what he wants and then goes and gets it than Dean Winchester. His whole life, he's been doing what he loves doing- the family business. If he wanted to do something else tomorrow, there would be no stopping him. Dean is doing what Dean wants to do, always has. While Dean used to be the King of Co-dependence, after 5.03 even he realizes now that he is happier without Sam around.
I'd argue that both Sam and Dean are cannon fodder.
Yes, they are both cannon fodder now, but Dean could be more than that when it's over. Sam will probably never be his own man, not anymore. Yes, in S2, he may have "choose" hunting, but that was out of responsibility for failing to keep the hellgate closed. Just like S3 was all about keeping Dean from Hell (and failing), and S4 was about stopping the apocalypse (and failing). Yes, Sam enjoys hunting, but he once also wanted something more out of life. Sam used to want a college education, that's gone. Sam used to want a wife and family, that's gone. Since Dean and Bobby are the only two people in the world who don't want Sam dead, none of that is coming back either.
Where Sam once had a full scholarship to Stanford, now he can't even keep a busboy job. Dean is basically doing Sam a favor by letting him come back, and Sam knows it. Sam may have asked to be treated more like a partner, (and it's very big of Dean to agree) but in the final analysis, he's never going to amount to more than Dean's sidekick. I realize that it's good for the show to have Sam with no life except sitting shotgun, but for someone who once saw himself in Sam, it's a bit depressing.
no subject
Eurgh. I want anyone who thinks Sam is evil to go back and rewatch every episode with Sam in them. Sam can be callous. Sam can be frustrating. Sam is human and wonderfully so. How anyone can consider the guy from Faith to be evil, I've no idea. Even in S4, he wasn't evil! Prideful and misguided, sure, but evil? Good grief. You find anyone calling him evil, please direct me to them - I'll gladly meta debate that concept!
I think you and I have different ideas of Dean and Sam's characters, which is probably why we got off on a wrong foot before. :) IMHO, Sam is very much his own person, albeit somewhat lost and uncertain in S1. Dean, in contrast, has been shown to want other things than hunting but to think he either didn't deserve them or would fail at them. He specifically asked Sam if they could stop hunting in S2 and talked about how tired he was of all of it in Croatoan. His "wish" in 2x20 was for a normal life with a normal girlfriend, his normal mother, and normal job. And he was happy with it, until he realized that so many people would have died if he were selfish enough to want these things for himself. We learned in Skins too that he was jealous that Sam had managed to get out because that's what he really wanted for himself as well, but thought that he was too much of a freak to succeed and that John needed him too much to leave.
Dean's also never had the confidence that Sam had in terms of self confidence. Dean's self esteem is incredibly shaky - much of his confidence is blustering. It's not that he's manfully putting on a strong facade while secretly weeping into his Wheaties each morning, but there's a reason Bobby called him out on it in 2x22. We saw it again in S3, during that dreamroot episode when demon!Dean confronted him with it and S4 saw what little confidence that he'd managed to scrap together to be absolutely shattered in 4x16.
Yes, in S2, he may have "choose" hunting, but that was out of responsibility for failing to keep the hellgate closed.
Mm, the Hell Gate was opened at the end of S2 and Sam chose to continue hunting long before that. IMHO, Sam went back to hunting in S1 to kill the YED. He didn't have to do so; he knew that John and Dean were hunting the demon. It's in Sam's nature though to seek revenge. (Again - an incredibly human desire!) By S2, I think he wanted to keep hunting because he was worried about turning evil and so wanted to try and redeem himself ahead of time. "I can't turn evil if I spend all my time saving people!" and that sort of thing.
The reasons that you give are why I feel so much for Sam. Dean lost a lot, but outside of Hell, Sam has definitely lost more because he knows what it's like to have that normal life and then to have it wrenched away. Dean remembers losing his childhood at age four, but Sam remembers losing his adult life at age 22. It's kinda ying and yang in what they've lost, almost.
The idea that Sam will never be more than a sidekick is incredibly depressing and I'll have to disagree with you on it. D: IMHO, they're both in equal danger of losing everything that they are if they give in to Michael and Lucifer, but there's nothing to me indicating that they can't equally push past that and kick ass going forward.
Trust me, if the end comes down to Sam sitting on the sidelines while Dean and Castiel save the day, I'll be pissed. I want the series to end with Sam managing to collect his life again and to find something he really wants to do. Maybe not law, but something that he'll love and that he can be successful in. IMHO, he selected law - and I think was something like tax law, even - because it was as far from hunting as he could find. I want to see Sam all grown up and standing on his own. I want him to be happy because I think he's had precious little of that in his life. I just want the same thing for Dean as well, you know?