[ SECRET POST #1046 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1046 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

THIS goes into effect starting with Submissions Post 151, as secrets were posted before the poll went up last week.

Secrets Left to Post: 15 pages, 353 secrets from Secret Submission Post #150.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2- not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [
1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[childings.livejournal.com]

I feel bad admitting this since I've been following EK for a long time (my husband knew her from back in the Psychommu Gaijin days) but I totally fucking agree. Nothing against her because it looks decent, the art is amazing (I love EK's style) it's just the fact that there's a fandom already is pretty ridiculous. I post stuff from the comic I've been working on (for almost a decade, but that's beside the point), but I wouldn't expect anyone to actually fangirl over it the way people squee all over this comic. I can't blame her for trying to cash in on its popularity, though. Times are tough for everybody, so it's good to make money any way you can. I can't hate anyone who spent at least a year waiting tables (when they were qualified for a better job) but still kept stabbing away at a dream. That's inspirational to me. Although I have to admit that the little mini-comics she did about waiting tables were much more compelling than anything she's done for this comic

So yeah, mixed feelings

ETA: I just popped over to her lj for the first time in like a year and it does seem that's she been productive, but I would rather just wait for the finished product to come out first. I guess some people like watching the process, but I think that not only is that kind of too much navel-gazing, it actually seems counterproductive to get that much feedback from a potential audience while you're working on something.

[halcyonjazz.livejournal.com]

I post stuff from the comic I've been working on (for almost a decade, but that's beside the point), but I wouldn't expect anyone to actually fangirl over it the way people squee all over this comic.

...neither did she? This became her project after she posted a couple of characters on a whim and people responded positively to it completely to her surprise, and then she developed them to the point where she proceeded to loyally work on her book.

So one can only share original material when you don't expect it, and if there is a fandom it's obnoxious? Buh? By that logic no one should be having a development diary of sorts online, no matter the person's own humility for the slight chance people might respond positively to it.

I am just really confused about what your "mixed feelings" actually are.

[childings.livejournal.com]

Basically, I have mixed feelings because I feel that having a fandom for a work in progress is counterproductive. Having a group of people constantly cheerleading your work isn't as beneficial as say, showing your work to a small group of people who are willing to tell you what works and what doesn't rather than just going YAAAAAAY about it.

It's okay to post WIP online but if it gets to the point where your WIP is the fandom maybe you should reconsider publicly posting all of your work. I know a lot of artists who post some WIP material but never like, you know, HEY HERE ARE THE COMPLETE THUMBS FOR MY FIRST TWO CHAPTERS kind of stuff

[halcyonjazz.livejournal.com]

That clears things up, thank you, but I have to say that's extremely, extremely judgmental.

My gut knee-jerk thought is "...who are you to say what sort of WIPs or the amount is okay for public viewing?" I, too, know many artists/writers who are permanently stuck in the developing stage but I also equally know plenty of artists/writers who actually, like, produce what they're developing. And, let me say because I HIGHLY disagree with this opinion that it's "counterproductive", it has nothing to do on what and how they are showing it and everything to do with how determined they are to work on their own project.

I am saying this separately from EK and TJ & Amal--though my opinion on that is, well, considering she's released preview books of the first couple of chapters, and she has a set deadline and is currently to-date completing... chapter 16 or some high number right now after about 2 years of constant work on it outside of dealing with waitressing and also a full time job? Sitting there and judging "oh, it's a WIP that will never be done" is extremely disrespectful in my eyes. I am pointing this out because you yourself called this inspirational, which to me is the most counter-intuitive part of your comments.

[childings.livejournal.com]

You don't feel like having a huge fanbase for your work in progress provides an incentive for lengthening the process that goes into finishing an actual comic? Personally, I would rather see an actual finished product (I plan on buying it, actually) than constant updates with sketches, thumbnails, etc. That stuff is a nice bonus but I would rather just see an actual comic. I know she's busy but it's been well over a year since she's been working on this and she hasn't even finished one chapter yet. Yes it's inspirational to see her work and fascinating to see the progress that goes into a project like that but at some point you need to stop indulging your fanbase, that's all I'm saying.

[halcyonjazz.livejournal.com]

Of course I don't feel that way, that's why I'm commenting to you saying that I strongly disagree, because I feel someone should. From personal experience, the project I am revolving 90% of my life right now would not have come to be if not for the small fanbase that spawned from it. It would have faded into the ether as 'just another idea' and the surprise interest in the characters I made up made me take a second look, and then a third, and soon there was an entire story and plot and now I'm very much in the same position as EK--making ends meet so I can spend the rest of my free time developing a comic.

So, yes, showing developing work to a fanbase does provide incentive to actually get off my ass and do it.

Again, how much you show your audience is not a factor in whether the project in question will be developed to finish or not, it would be the personality of the person doing it. Whether YOU yourself, as the audience, would not like to see the developing work or the finished project is a different subjective matter, but that too has no factor on the artist/writer in question.

And as personal defence on EK: yes, yes she has finished one chapter. In fact she's finished several. If I recall right she published the first five in a preview book and currently working on chapters as high as 16, as I mentioned previously.

Basically this returns to my previous point: your views are extremely judgmental, and in fact it seems like your projecting your own work habits on a complete stranger.

[pollinia.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt in.

Having a group of people constantly cheerleading your work isn't as beneficial as say, showing your work to a small group of people who are willing to tell you what works and what doesn't rather than just going YAAAAAAY about it.

I don't see why an artist can't have both? Anything posted publicly is going to get positive responses. And that can make an artist feel really positively about their work. But I don't know if I know an artist or a writer who doesn't, in addition to that supportive fanbase, have a small group of friends who help with the more constructive stuff.

I am biased in having been awed by EK's work for a long time. I think her praise is well deserved. Full disclosure.

[childings.livejournal.com]

It's all well and good to feel positive about your work, but as anyone who has ever had a real art class will tell you, sometimes you need constructive criticism, or at least more worthwhile feedback than just IT'S PERFECT I LOVE IT. Also, having a bunch of people cheerleading your work can feed your ego to the point that you may not be able to look at your work with as much of a critical eye as you would've been able to before.

Since anonymous brought it up, yes I'm working on a project and yes I post stuff publicly, the difference being that I'm hoping that people have something more to say besides "it's good" or "it sucks" -- I would rather have someone tell me what they think works and what doesn't and why it does or doesn't work than just squeee over my stuff (even though that wouldn't happen anyway because I don't have as much practice drawing so my stuff isn't very good). I have a few friends that I like to bounce ideas and stuff off of and I find this is very beneficial for me, especially when it comes to writing. Also, there's something that doesn't really seem sincere when people only have nice things to say about your work, especially a work in progress.

[pollinia.livejournal.com]

but as anyone who has ever had a real art class will tell you
Gee I feel schooled now.


the difference being that I'm hoping that people have something more to say besides "it's good" or "it sucks"
Again, you're making assumptions as to the artist's intentions.

You still seem to be operating under the assumption that EK does not have a group of friends who actively critique her work. She routinely posts caps of her work on her journal and says, "This looks wonky. What's wrong with it?" And gets very blunt feedback. (Perhaps this is on a filter?) And, to go waaayyy back, the OP never said EK's work needed to be critiqued. They were all hurty because lots of people liked it. The closest thing to a complaint voiced by the OP regarding the actual work was that it was "just another gay love story." (Based, of course, on the sparse bits of story we're given. So, apparently, we're not given enough glimpses of the full story to form a positive excitement about its completion, but we're certainly given TOO MUCH so as to indicate that the artist is arrogant in sharing the work and "expecting" people to like it.)

Like her work, don't like it. It doesn't really matter. But there's not a damn thing wrong with positive feedback (and this does not always equal cheerleading), so long as the artist is level-headed enough to handle it. I'm sorry if that isn't the case for everyone and somehow has offended you.

[halcyonjazz.livejournal.com]

You are, again, making huge leaps of assumptions and judgments on this sort of practice. What on earth makes you think your approach to it is so different than other people aside from you?

All I am reading is "if they do it MY WAY then it's okay!" That is so ego-centric and, again, judgmental on everyone else.

And even if it was just full squee, what on earth makes you think positive encouragement doesn't provide incentive to, you know, work on it? Who said these artists/writers aren't getting constructive criticism from another source or maybe aren't asking their own audience for it?

If your own comic suddenly gets a huge positive-responsive fanbase, then what, does that suddenly mean you're just in it for the cheerleading, regardless of your original intent because it's only what it appears to be that matters? This reeks of hypocrisy.

I realize I am tracking this thread with a fervour but, boy, something about this really bugs me, and I got free time, so.

[(Anonymous)]

but as anyone who has ever had a real art class will tell you

Okay. I'm not part of this particular train of conversation, but I thought I'd point out that many of the people commenting about and/or defending EK are, in fact, artists or aspiring artists. And while it may not have been your intent, that certainly sounded very arrogant to me. And if you had any idea about EK or her comic, you'd know that, as other people have said, she asks for and recieves a lot of constructive criticism whenever she posts a new panel or a sketch. The most recent example I can think of is when she posted a panel and a great majority of the comments were "the eyes just look plain wrong." and she agreed and discussed why they were wrong and how they could be fixed.

So, I don't know, do your research before you start flinging assumptions left right and centre. Also, you mentioned that you are working on a project, and you're hoping for constructive criticism. Does this mean that you haven't recieved any thus far?

So isn't that a bit hypocritical?

[(Anonymous)]

I read your words, but all I hear coming from it is, "I have a comic, why don't I have so many fans?????? WAH WHY IS SHE SO POPULAR?????"

[childings.livejournal.com]

I don't expect my shit to have any fans because I don't even have the drive or ambition to draw frequently enough to complete even one chapter of a comic. It's not jealous, it's irritation that she doesn't have an actual, you know, comic that I can buy and read and is instead indulging her fans with more and more progress (even though it's been almost two years now?) I want to read the fucking comic already. Yes I know she's busy but there are plenty of people out there with jobs who manage to regularly put out webcomics or publish their own minicomics or whatever, it's not like she's special because she has a job (AFAIK she doesn't waitress anymore and is back to working in her given profession which puts her in a better position than a lot of people out there).

So yes, I already know I am pathetic and nobody cares about what I do, thank you for pointing that out. You are truly a fucking genius.