fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1047 ]

[ SECRET POST #1047 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1047 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

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103.

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104.

[Evil Dead]

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105.

[Bill Nye The Science Guy]

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106.

[Doctor Who]

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107.

[Tipping the Velvet]

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108.

[True Blood]

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109.

[Sons of Anarchy]

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110.

[Supernatural]

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111.

[Jensen Ackles, Danneel Harris]

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112.

[Nate Ruess/The Format/Fun]

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113.

[I Love You Phillip Morris]

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114.

[Red Dwarf / Mighty Boosh]

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115.

[90210 / The L Word]

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116.

[Animal Crossing]

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117.

[Helen Mirren]

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118.

[Vocaloid - Toeto]

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119.

[Where The Heart Is]

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120.

[Pushing Daisies]

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121.

[High School Musical 3]

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122.

[Pokemon]

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123.

[Criminal Minds/Glee]

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124.

[V]

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125.

[Doctor Who, Avatar, Naruto, Firefly/Serenity, NCIS, Push, Repo]

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126.

[Zelda CD-i]

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127.

[Dexter]

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128.

[Gamer]

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129.

[The World Ends with You]

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130.

[The Black Donnellys, Kings, House, Cloverfield]

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131.

[Time Hollow]

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132.

[Legend of the Seeker]

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133.

[Meryl Streep/Jane Lynch/Glee]

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134.

[Scrubs]

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135.

[Alias Comics]

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136.

[Torchwood]

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137.

[Torchwood/Good Omens]

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138.

[Morning Musume]

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139.

[Marieke Hardy]

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140.

[Scrubs]

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141.

[Francesco Borromini/Giovanni Lorenzo Bernini]

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142.

[X-Factor]

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143.

[The Mentalist]

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144.

[Tim Roth/Jack Roth]

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145.

[Tales of The Abyss]

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146.

[Beavis and Butthead & Inglorious Basterds]

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147.

[Sophie's World/Giant Robo: The Day The Earth Stood Still]

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148.

[Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney)/ Ryū Sasakura (Bartender)]

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149.

[Neopets: The Darkest Faerie]

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150.

[Josie Lawrence]

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151.

[Matthew Bomer/Zachary Quinto/Lee Pace]

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152.

[Flash Forward]

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153.

[Joyce and Walky]

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154. [SPOILERS for Pokemon D&P Adventure]

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155. [SPOILERS for Pokemon]

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156. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter]

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157. [SPOILERS for Glee]

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158. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]

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159. [SPOILERS for Jennifer's Body]

[Jennifer's Body, Supernatural]

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160. [SPOILERS for Umineko no Naku Koro Ni]

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161. [SPOILERS for The Lost Battalion]

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162. [SPOILERS for Heroes]

[Heroes/Chrono Trigger]

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163. [SPOILERS for Persona 3 Portable]

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164. [SPOILERS for Uncharted 2]

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165. [SPOILERS for Pokemon]

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166. [SPOILERS for Kara no Kyoukai]

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167. [SPOILERS for Something But They Didn't Tell Me What]

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168. [SPOILERS for Orphan]

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169. [SPOILERS for YuGiOh! 5D's]

Notes:

THIS goes into effect starting with Submissions Post 151, as secrets were posted before the poll went up last week.

Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 275 secrets from Secret Submission Post #150.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Gonna side with what others have said... There are plenty of reasons to dislike or even hate a character. I will say though that the VAST majority of people I've met who hate Castiel do so because they think he's either taken Dean away from Sam (thus either messing with their OTP or Sam'n'Dean) and/or the he's thematically replaced Sam as a lead character. So I can understand your frustration, just keep in mind that though that might be an extremely popular reason to dislike the guy, it's not the sole reason that he rubs some people the wrong way.

I don't dislike Castiel because of any pairing or supposed screen-time steal-age, I started to dislike him 3/4 of S4 onward because he's such a hypocrite, always waffling, and while centuries of angel programming is one thing, I do not enjoy watching him take zero responsibility for anything and suffer no consequences. And I dislike that fandom celebrates him as a human-wannabe -- when he's *not*, that's why he and Anna were at such tense odds -- and perfect.

Well, I did say "vast majority" and not "everyone". :D

I don't see Castiel as a hypocrite and IMHO the thousands of years that he spent pretty much as a drone really are extremely meaningful and necessary to understand his character. He's not human and expecting him to just be able to throw off what had been his literal reason for being, especially when to question was to rebel, and to rebel was to be like Lucifer, seems unfair to me. I've heard people complain that he gets too much of an excuse for his behavior because he's not human, but it is what it is. I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

He's not perfect and definitely makes mistakes. They're remarkably apparent when he tries to pass himself off for human (5x03 was full of these) but we see him make them just as himself as well. Look at his decision about Jesse, for instance; he had a point about the kid being insanely powerful and the danger he could cause if he was kidnapped by the demons, but even if he were right to kill a child (and in Supernatural, killing kids is NEVER the right answer), he got his ass handed to him by the nine year old because of the method he chose.

As for consequences, I sort of file having been murdered as a major response to his actions... If you're talking about that he released Sam in 4x21, I really, really hope that gets addressed as well, even though I've little hope for it. Supernatural is the show that glossed over the huge conversation where Sam discovered that Dean broke the first seal, after all, and stuff like that is of FAR more emotional and plot impact to me than that Castiel let Sam out, especially since Castiel refusing would have meant that he couldn't have released Dean in 4x22 and Zachariah would just have sent someone else to open the door for Sam anyway.

*fangirls you*

Sense! You make so much of it!!

Woohoo!

...I've got to ask though, what is that behind Castiel in your icon? Wings? Feathers? A couple of swans swimming next to each other on a silver sea? Curious minds want to know! *grin*

They're wings

Nifty! And pretty, too. :)

*blush* I try :)

Jsyk the other anons weren't me, because I didn't think you came across as an ass. D: Whenever I talk to you I find you extremely polite and only say what you think and readily provide canonical scenarios that explain why you feel a certain way about the show. Even when I disagree, I still walk away admiring you.

the thousands of years that he spent pretty much as a drone really are extremely meaningful and necessary to understand his character. He's not human and expecting him to just be able to throw off what had been his literal reason for being, especially when to question was to rebel, and to rebel was to be like Lucifer, seems unfair to me.
I agree. Add that to him being completely alone of his species, he'd be twice as stiff and fumbling. He'd burned his bridges and his existence was ruled by obedience. Anna is gone, and Dean is human: he has literally no one who can understand what he's going through right now. He doesn't have his own Sam/Dean to make the journey bearable.

I've heard people complain that he gets too much of an excuse for his behavior because he's not human
I also agree with this strongly. He does not get a free pass, and he does not have the moral high ground to be the authority, which he thinks he does.

He's not perfect and definitely makes mistakes.
*I* knows this, and agree. Much of it is that the fans really have ruined Castiel for me. Before I re-entered fandom after getting caught up I enjoyed and was intrigued by him, but the pillar fandom put him on and refusing accept his faults as anything other than 'awwwww' just. Turned me off to the point it's bled over into when I see Castiel on the show, which saddens me, because I have *never* had this happen to me before (where fandom affected how I see a character). Between that, horribly inconsistent writing on angel nature (host selection for instance, and the difference between 4.01 and 4.20 and 5.01), and shitty writing to use the character as a bad joke (much of 5.03), I...eurgh. Killing a child is not cute, fandom, no matter how guilty he felt doing it! Yes, I want him to answer for letting Sam out with the intent that Sam would let Lucifer rise, or at least get to Ruby and enable his addiction and blow up the remaining threads between Heaven's Chosen, Dean, and his brother, until Michael!Dean eventually killed Sam, which was more or less Zachariah's ominous plan. I suspect Sam might even have already put together that an angel, not necessarily Castiel, let him out after he saw the full truth. He was already suspicious of how he got out of a demon room in 4.21. However, he probably sees that night as his choice to leave, crazy and detoxing though he was, and doesn't bother to correct Dean thinking Ruby bust him out. If he *has* suspected Castiel, from the tension in 5.06, again, he probably feels that he doesn't want to make waves with someone Dean currently trusts and Sam's already shown he'll clutch at allies for the war.

As far as death, what the eff *is* death for an angel? Humans have souls, but so far as we know SPN-biblical canon is still consistent that humans are special to this and angels are not.

Supernatural is the show that glossed over the huge conversation where Sam discovered that Dean broke the first seal, after all
And the stupid voice mail, where Dean thinks Sam rejected his olive branch, and Sam thinks Dean could actually hunt him, feeding his paranoia Dean's love has always been conditional at best and only tied into loyalty to John.

especially since Castiel refusing would have meant that he couldn't have released Dean in 4x22 and Zachariah would just have sent someone else to open the door for Sam anyway.
This falls flat for me. That Castiel was 'only a victim of circumstance' does not give him ample wiggle room to be let off.

sldkfjsdl stupid LJ. Sorry!

Aw, thank you! I'm not sure you who are, anon, but I really appreciate your rational and reasonable approach to things - even in cases where we disagree. It can be a lot of fun to debate things, but it's so much more enjoyable when people refrain from getting heated in the process. :)

He doesn't have his own Sam/Dean to make the journey bearable.

Exactly! I kind of think fandom was worried/hoped (depending on which part of fandom you were in, natch) that Dean would become, well, Castiel's Dean in the same sense that he's Sam's Dean. And since Dean isn't really Sam's Dean in the way he was in S1, it seemed like there was potential for that to happen.

IMHO though, it didn't happen. In part because I don't think Dean want's to be anyone's Dean right now, he wants to be his own man, but also because Castiel might be struggling for understanding right now but following Dean's advice in S4 wound up getting him killed and Lucifer was still released. I think Castiel thinks quite highly of Dean, but 5x06 proved that Castiel won't blindly follow him when he thinks Dean is wrong.

he does not have the moral high ground to be the authority

I agree with this, to an extent. I think he no more believes himself to be "the" authority than Dean or Sam do (or Zachariah or Lucifer, for that matter). He definitely doesn't get a free pass. Just like Sam and Dean, I want to see Castiel own up to his errors and recognize that he's screwed up and then work to rectify his mistakes.

We might just be hanging in different areas in fandom, but I haven't seen that much selective blindness when it comes to Castiel. The worst I've come across is a tendency to write him as exceedingly helpless in Castiel whump fics, so Dean or sometimes Sam can come along and save him, usually right before bedding him. I usually prefer my Castiel fics gen and he's not my usual favorite target when it comes to whumpage, so those sorts of stories generally don't appeal to me. Those are the ones where he seems to come across as overly perfect, IMHO, but since I've no interest in them to begin with, I generally manage to avoid them.

As far as death, what the eff *is* death for an angel?

That's a really good question! I get the impression that when Castiel was killed, he simply was not, as it were. Like the pure form of an angel is something like the pure form of a soul - something that can only be seen by those with sight beyond the veil. Like Pam, for instance. That's why it was such a huge deal when Castiel was reborn - it should have been impossible. It really was a miracle, even on the angelic level.

And the stupid voice mail, where Dean thinks Sam rejected his olive branch, and Sam thinks Dean could actually hunt him, feeding his paranoia Dean's love has always been conditional at best and only tied into loyalty to John.

OMG, SO THIS. The fact that we've gone so far into the season and not have the voicemail referenced once is extremely irritating. Even if the truth didn't come out, you'd think that something of such MAJOR importance for Sam and Dean's relationship would have been at least mentioned!

It's things like this that cause S5 to not quite work for me. The voicemail, what Castiel did, the issue with the first seal - there's so much that's going on that's simply being lost and brushed aside as unimportant. Kripke & co have had an issue writing decent emotional follow through since S1, but with something as important as the brothers' relationship, something that used to be described as the "third main character of the show", you'd think they'd pay more attention to what they're doing!

That Castiel was 'only a victim of circumstance' does not give him ample wiggle room to be let off.

Oh, agreed! I want to see Castiel brought up for it and if I were writing the show, Zachariah would use that as a means to drive a wedge between Dean and Castiel. I just don't have faith anymore that it will be remembered. I mean, if things as thematically important as the voicemail can be forgotten, then I've not much confidence that we'll ever see resolution for what Cas did. :(

Aw, thank you! I'm not sure you who are, anon, but I really appreciate your rational and reasonable approach to things - even in cases where we disagree.
Yeah normally I'm not anon but when it comes to Castiel I've become paranoid. Probably unnecessary because LJ is no where near as fierce as TWoP, but sometimes I just don't feel confident and yeah. D:

Love all your replies. This especially:

Zachariah would use that as a means to drive a wedge between Dean and Castiel.

Has given me some more to think about, and pine for in canon and fic!

Yay for 5.10, my Castiel-is-a-pretty-good-character flags are back out. Thank you writers. ;D

The ~vast majority~ of people I know who don't like Castiel just find him bloody boring.

Um. Good for you? I didn't say that everyone disliked him for those reasons, just that they're by far the most common ones that I've seen. I would scarcely presume to speak for all of fandom, just my own experiences within it. *shrug*

They're by far not the most common reasons I've seen, so your experience clearly isn't crossing over into mine. If you don't want to speak for all of fandom, then perhaps keep the VAST DRAMATIC CAPSLOCK EMPHASIS majorities out of it, hmm? It gets a little irritating on top of secrets like this.

My apologies if you were offended, but no. I don't think I'll make a change in how I communicate simply because it goes against your sensibilities.

Coupla points to recall - I said "people who hate Castiel", not people who dislike him and I said "people I've met", not all of fandom. And in my experience, the people who actually hate Castiel - not merely dislike him or are indifferent to him - hate him because of the reasons I specified above. Obviously YMMV because we haven't had the same experiences.

Yes, you highlighted that it's "people you've met", but really now? "VAST majorites" - what kind of effect were you going for there other than WOW WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE!! If you're going to do that, and be unwilling to change how you communicate to make it less annoying to people whose experiences vastly differ from your own, then I'm going to come and be irritated at you. It can be a mutually annoying experience.

*IRRITATION*

Now I'm going to bed.

And for the record, I REALLY HATE Castiel, so here is a new statistic for you to add your experiences.

IA *Fangirls this post*

Well, it WAS a lot of people. Still not seeing the issue here. You seem pretty overinvested into this concept though, especially since it all sprang from a reading comprehension fail.

I'm not annoyed, for the record. A little amused, yes, but not annoyed. You go on hating if that's what makes you happy! :D

OH NO, you have uncovered my terrible, terrible secret overinvestment in people's language use. All of these years of studying linguistics and I never knew. Please. My issue is that I don't like people using imprecise language. You are apparently happy to do so! I'm sure the next person who takes issue will just be suffering from ~reading comprehension fail~ too. ENJOY.

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(Anonymous) - 2009-11-18 15:08 (UTC) - Expand

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ginzai.livejournal.com - 2009-11-18 22:41 (UTC) - Expand

Lol defensive.

*never watched an episode of supernatural in my life and have no intention of ever doing*

Saying what pretty much amounts to "I'm not going to change my behaviour just because the way it makes people feel they are being generalized about and stereotyped makes them feel bad" makes you come across as kind of an ass.

I don't know if it is, but if the way you're coming across here is unintentional, I thought you might like to know.

I guess if you really don't care how other people feel and you're totally uninterested in hearing it, then sorry for bothering you. I just feel the need to say something, sometimes.

I'd think you had a point had the offense not come from a reading comprehension fail. Also, I said in my original response that there are multiple reasons to dislike a character and while those are popular reasons to dislike him, they aren't the only ones.

You can think me an ass if you'd like, but I'm not sure how much more clearly I can state that I was a) talking solely from my own experience; b) talking specifically about the Castiel haters, not just those who dislike him or aren't interested in him; and c) not even talking in absolutes about those haters.

Condescending demands from people who honestly come across as hypersensitive and overly defensive aren't going to make me change my behavior. Which isn't you, in this case; you're more passive aggressive and more outright insulting in turns, but what hey, that's not going to get me to change, either. :)

People get all kinds of crazy in this fandom. The defensiveness really needs to be taken down a notch; I think we've all be a lot happier and relaxed if people could do so.

Ffs this is not a racism or sexism discussion, it's a couple of people getting their panties in a wad because some one the internet said that a lot of people they have met hate a character for a particular reason, with out naming names.

But generally, when I see people get that defensive about stupid shit (because supernatural couldn't really be classified as much else), I often wonder if the person they are replying to hit the nail on the head, so that those people assume that comment is about them.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1047 ]

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Er, original OP but not secret!OP?

Er, original OP but not secret!OP?

Re: Er, original OP but not secret!OP?

Re: Er, original OP but not secret!OP?

Re: Er, original OP but not secret!OP?

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