[ SECRET POST #7017 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #7017 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[The Muppets 2011]



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[Monarch: Legacy of Monsters]



















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 25 secrets from Secret Submission Post #1001.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

... huh? Do... do you not understand what "rivals" means? The whole distinction between rivals and enemies is that rivals actually DO respect/like each other on some fundamental level. That's why they're rivals and not just plain enemies...

[(Anonymous)]

Also its worth mentioning that one of the pillars of rivalshipping is how the rival stirs feelings of competitiveness or needing/wanting to better themselves in the POV character. A lot of what expresses itself as "I can't stand being around that person" is actually "I can't stand being reminded that I'm not decisively better than them and I'm mad at myself"

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn’t consider two people on the same side who don’t like each other much enemies, that’s really not the correct word usage there. Antagonistic perhaps if rivals doesn’t work for you?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Just because two people, for example, work for the same company doesn't mean they can't be enemies trying to stab each other in the back for promotions though. Their coworkers might see them as rivals but if they really have no respect for each other, they're enemies

[(Anonymous)]

DA
Ive always thought of enemies = trying to harm or wishing harm on each other. Rivals = individuals trying to out perform each other.

Or, rivals is more of a thing where they are both striving to be the best, but there doesn't necessarily have to be feelings beyond competitiveness. Enemies is more of a pure negative actions or feelings.

Just my thoughts. It is a fun distinction to think about how to define.

[(Anonymous)]

Sure, but the key and the tropemaker for rivalshipping is "(grudging) respect". It doesn't have to be "like" but if the respect isn't there or never forms, you have a ship between two enemies having hatesex who feel nothing but contempt and annoyance for each other.

The characters 'acknowledging each other as rivals' is necessary, if a character sees another character as merely an obstacle to be crushed, an ignorable idiot, or a bully to be endured then it's not really the trope because they're not really competing, the focus is elsewhere.

Nope.

[(Anonymous)]

Rivals has absolutely nothing to do with respecting or liking each other.

"The word rival most commonly refers to a person or group that tries to defeat or be more successful than another person or group, which means that rivals tend to come in pairs. Candidates running for the same political office are political rivals, and two people trying to earn the exclusive affection of a third are romantic rivals. Teams, schools, or companies might be longtime rivals if they try over many years to outdo each other."

From Meriam Webster dictionary. Nothing about respecting or liking. Honestly not sire where you are coming from with that idea.

Re: Nope.

[iff_and_xor]

Yeah, I think people are projecting a bit of their preferences onto the terms.

“Rival” and “enemy” definitely have overlap, though they emphasize different aspects of a relationship (i.e. whether it’s two people competitively striving for the same thing or whether it’s two people with strong hostility or hatred).

Re: Nope.

[(Anonymous)]

Enemies to lovers and rivals to lovers are distinct literary tropes, not dictionary definitions.

If we're going by dictionary definitions, hurt/comfort is so broad it can cover anything with a hurt that is comforted, and a character getting a papercut and another putting a bandaid on it would count. But that's not what the trope means.

Re: Nope.

[(Anonymous)]

In the dictionary, yeah, but we're talking fandom, where rivalshipping has a very specific connotation. Shipping two political rivals who genuinely hate each other would be enemyshipping, not rivalshipping, because the basis of the ship is pure antagonism. A rivalship requires there to be respect even if the characters are constantly butting heads.

[iff_and_xor]

Wait, do you consider having mutual respect enough to make two people not enemies?

Or do you consider rivals a subtype of enemies, requiring mutual respect?

To put it another way, can people be both enemies and rivals?

[(Anonymous)]

DA

I'd say all enemies have some sort of rivalry with each other, but not all rivals are enemies with each other.

But rivalshipping is not only 'rivalry exists'. Rivalshippings means the rivalry is the focal point of the ship, and enemyshipping means being enemies is the focal point of the ship. Enemies to lovers isn't called rivals even when rivalry exists because the point is the enemy part.

[iff_and_xor]

Thanks, that makes sense. I definitely agree that two people can technically be both things at once and I’d expect people to use the term that emphasizes the aspect they’re focusing on.

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT - Personally I would say yes, a ship can be both enemies and rivals. That said, I think one aspect usually outweighs the other, and I suspect that the enemies dynamic is more likely to outweigh the rivals dynamic than the other way around.

There's also a question of what exactly you count as enemies. I don't personally think that characters simply disliking each other as people is enough to give them an enemies dynamic. To me, enemies is an active dynamic, which is to say that at least one of them has to be out to get the other in some way. Not necessarily a life-ruining way, but certainly enough to be felt. Therefore it becomes very easy for the enemies dynamic to upstage the rivalry dynamic, because even relatively small acts of sabotage are likely to feel pretty serious, like, "Oh, so it's war then."

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT

I think rivals also has to be a somewhat active dynamic. The characters have to look at each other as rivals and that doesn't necessarily happen even in scenarios where rivals exist. Like a character designating another character as Their Rival over all the others who might be competing for the same thing or title is significant. The others are in theory competing and rivals technically, but they aren't LI that the character has decided is THE rival which implies they acknowledge the designated rival's ability or worthiness to some degree.

Basically, rivalshipping is short for designated-rival shipping, I guess? 501 people competing for a title, doesn't mean the main character can have rival ships with 499 of them if they've dismissed them as NPCs - just the one the character designates (whether they realize it or not) as The Rival.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I agree with this, though I can't decide if I think the recognition needs to be reciprocal or not. I think for me personally it can still be a rival ship if only one of the characters perceives it as a rivalry, but it depends on the specifics. Though I guess it'd be more accurate to say that each character's perception of the rivalry can be quite different. One character can be seething, bitter rivals with the other, while the other character is just like, "Huh, guess I'll have to really bring my A game if I want to beat them!"

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Hmm I would say it has to be reciprocal, or has to be *eventually*, like one character can strive against another who looks down on them at first but in the end earn recognition for something they do and obtain the Rival position... but if the other character never considers the main character to be any sort of competition at all throughout the whole ship and never will, I'm not sure if it fits.

If someone chased another person around for 1000 years who never thought of them as anything more than a noob I'd say you have a challenger type character who never gets the rival dynamic they want

[(Anonymous)]

if the other character never considers the main character to be any sort of competition at all throughout the whole ship and never will,

Yeah, but that's not really what's implied by a character going, "I'll really have to bring my A game if I want to beat them!" I think different characters can have very different personalities and thus very different reactions to feeling challenged by another person. One character can feel their sense of self (or even their well-being) deeply threatened by the challenge another character poses, while the other character is just sunshine and good vibes and deeply well-adjusted thoughts about how challenge is healthy and helps you grown and improve. One is having a great time being rivals while the other is imploding. It's a specific flavor of rival ship, for sure, but to me it still counts.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure where I disagreed with what you quoted? The comment started out being unsure whether it had to be reciprocated, I was addressing that bit. Reciprocated? Imo, it has to be to qualify. Reciprocated EQUALLY? Nah. But just saying there must be *something*, which your examples have.