[ SECRET POST #7045 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #7045 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 27 secrets from Secret Submission Post #1006.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[pengilly]

understand the difference between fiction and reality

I think I see what this post is about.

There's one group of fans in particular that uses this dogwhistle to dunk on people expressing very legitimate disgust at fans glorifying unambiguous incest, pedophilia, racism and other dynamics found weird by so-called "normies".

As a yumeshipper, it will never not amuse me how proshippers of all people in fandom will clutch their pearls, feigning concern for yumes' mental health at what essentially amounts to harmless roleplay. Barring a handful of extremists, most of us know our f/os aren't real, that's often the whole point.

Proshippers can wish for yumeshippers to leave fandom all they want, but normies (read: normal people) are still going to find other things left behind in fandom just as weird, if not weirder. And not because they cannot differentiate between fiction and reality.

[(Anonymous)]

+10. Not a yummeshipper, but it's weird to see the reality vs fiction used against self-shippers from people who claim to advocate against fandom pearl clutchers that use the same argument against shipping and fiction.

[pengilly]

OMG yes, this is far from the first time I've seen it too, Back when I still frequented the fanfic subreddits, I sometimes saw proshippers there mock yumeshippers. It always threw me for a loop when I see it.

Mainly because the crux of it seemed to be the idea that most yumeshippers legitimately believe the things they fantasize are/should be real, which is a variation of a stereotype that proshippers themselves fight against.

Though I guess that when you're part of a group that's widely hated in mainstream fandom spaces, dunking on a group of people who are supposedly weirder than you together can bring some degree of catharsis.

[(Anonymous)]

Why is this framed as a "proshippers collectively hate yumeshippers" thing? Maybe I just curate my feed too well, but I've never seen proshippers dunking on yumeshippers. But more to the point, "separating fiction from reality" is not an argument unique to proshippers; my completely offline normie father expressed this exact same sentiment in a discussion about movies yesterday. Given OP's desire to make fandom more appealing to normies, it seems more likely to me that they're normie-adjacent and freaked out by something they think is ""weird"". As you point out, proship is not typically associated with the accessible or uncontroversial sides of fandom, so I'm disinclined to think that OP is coming at this from a proship perspective. Overall, your conclusion seems very random, and not dissimilar at all from what OP seems to be saying about your community.

That being said, I don't doubt there are individual proshippers out there who do exactly what you're describing, because they fundamentally aren't coming at proship from an anti-censorship perspective, but because that position aligns with their own interests—making them, yes, prone to intellectual inconsistency. That's annoying, certainly, even within a proship framework. Are you really even proship if you're twisting yourself into knots about yumeshipping? Lock in and be serious.

In other words: solidarity with you and other yumeshippers, but this comment just seems like an excuse to take shots at people you don't like. With love, a proshipper.

[pengilly]

This wasn’t a shot at all proshippers, nor did I ever claim that proshippers "collectively" hate yumeshippers. I was talking specifically about the ones, like OP, who specifically go out of their way to insist that yumeshippers are delusional or hinder fandom, and display hypocrisy in wanting tolerance for themselves while not displaying it to others.

I recognize that most proshippers likely don't care one way or the other. In my second comment I used the phrase "I sometimes saw proshippers there mock yumeshippers", for a reason.

It's nice you were able to block and curate your feed on whatever site you found yourself on. But while you personally may not have seen proshippers making these dunks, I definitely have. And in instances such as those I've seen on fanfic subreddits, I see these fans attempting to paint themselves as the sane/normal ones who know that fictional characters aren't real, versus misguided yumeshippers who think that fictional characters are real, can love you back (and, in being real, presumably be hurt by certain scenarios). I can see why, with that lens, they might think that way of self shippers. Basically anti-puritanism, combined with delusion.

I don't think this is necessarily done out of malice, but in misunderstanding the extent of most self-shipper's fantasies. But it is still ironic that they take it out on an easy target, as you said. It is refreshing to see someone who at least can see the discrepancy.

I will say that more than a few proshippers, in that space, at least, do seem to think they have a shot with normies. I see frequent insistence that being proship is what most people irl align with, because all it means is being against harassment and censorship. (All the while being vague on what counts as harassment and censorship)

Where I suspected OP's logic came from: If there were a group of fans who not only wholeheartedly embraced the cringiest aspects of fandom without even trying to mask it as exploring canon characters, but also supposedly exacerbated other worst parts of fandom morality culture—over-protectiveness of characters, inability to tolerate others' character interpretations, excess concerns with morality...

Wouldn't it stand to reason that their departure might make fandom more palatable for "normies"?

And though I cannot be 100% certain of OP's beliefs, variations of "tell the/learn the difference between fiction and reality", "fiction is not reality" phrase is very frequently used in proship rhetoric, so it did color the post for me.

I see it all the time in bios, as a catch-all retort to disgust at problematic themes (even if the other person was well aware it was fiction, and was more concerned about the implications behind it), to the point that I see it referenced by antis when talking about proshippers. It's not necessarily the sentiment itself, but the phrasing.

Still, I do not know OP, again, so your guess is as good as mine. I'm just saying there is a pattern I've recognized, and it doesn't come from nowhere.

Contributing to it is the odd hate-boner fans here seem to have for yumeshippers (I saw Snapewives brought up here and on the last post referencing selfships, and people on the last post telling OP to seek help due to the selfship itself, as opposed to their excess comparison to others). All the while no one expresses concern or brings up infamous fandom incidents towards people who openly ship things like incest.

When there's a discrepancy like that in a community on a site that generally has a chill "ship and let ship" reputation...you start to connect the dots.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean, shipping yourself with a fictional character IS weird. That's not just a normie opinion, my overwhelming experience in multiple fandoms has been that even people who are deep into fandom will usually find it strange or off-putting. And it's not really hard to see why; aside from the whole "fictional character" part, most people are in fandom to talk about the existing canon characters and their relationships with each other. They have no interest in a ship that involves someone else's made-up self-insert.

There's nothing proship about an opinion that mostly boils down to "we're here for the canon characters."

[(Anonymous)]

Uh... yeah, no, where do you get the "this is a proshipper" from this secret?
This kind of weird-ass victim mentality and persecution complex is exactly one of the things that gives you yumeshippers a bad name. Sounds like you're one of those yumeshippers who hates other people shipping characters with your husbandos so much that you feel the need to talk shit about those evil proshippers who try to take away your imagined boyfriends.

[pengilly]

I'm a sharer. I never get jealous, and I love seeing other people self-ship with her. I also have a waifu, not a husbando. Lol! But I guess you could make those assumptions.

If you wanted something to be angry about.

[(Anonymous)]

It does make me lol how people on this site will swear up and down that fiction doesn’t affect reality, it’s until it’s some fandom thing they don’t like then apparently the people into it can’t tell it’s not real. It’s very funny.