Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-12-18 04:18 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-12-18 04:18 pm
[ SECRET POST #1078 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1078 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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161. [SPOILERS for Glee]
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163. [SPOILERS for UNSEEN ACADEMICALS BY TERRY PRATCHETT]
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166. [SPOILERS for something but they didnt tell me what]
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167. [SPOILERS for Birth by Sleep]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #154.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 12:35 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 12:43 am (UTC)(link)Castiel fans will believe anything and make up the rest, most other viewers would actually like the show to make a bit of sense.
This show is riddled with plot holes. Do you bitch about those? Dean and Sam's characterization sometimes flops all over the place depending on the writer, do you whine about that? Supernatural is entertaining but has a lot of problems, no matter what part you're talking about.
As for the whole delusional Castiel fan part that you keep alluding back to, I pointed out a very good reason above why Dean might value Castiel as a friend that you have completly disregarded, most likely because you can't argue against it as it's canon. How does that make you any better than those who are "making things up"?
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 12:59 am (UTC)(link)If the writers had let the friendship happen/evolve gradually during this season I would find it believable, but they didn't, especially will all the betrayals and manipulation Castiel did last season. Castiel dying would have been the turning point where the brother could forgive him his earlier actions and then slowly begin to maybe build up friendship and trust between them. To let it happen without any effort at all and Sam and Dean being so OCC with how they sudden both trust the angel doesn't fly at all for me.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 01:57 am (UTC)(link)Now there was a separation between Dean and Sam earlier, and since it's already been established Dean doesn't do too well by himself, who else was he going to turn to while doing jobs? Cas is pretty much the closest one to Dean after Sam - guy saw Dean's soul. And after Bobby and Sam were gone from Dean in 5x04, it was shown that Dean had no one else to trust besides Cas, and we were shown what happened between them after five years of interaction.
Dean isn't exactly sitting around braiding Cas' hair, but there has been a progression showing how much Dean trusts Cas and is relying more and more on Cas. It's not a stretch to say that at least within canon, Cas is in the Winchester circle, like Bobby, and it's not a stretch for shippers to read more into the relationship.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 02:21 am (UTC)(link)Castiel didn't die for Dean. He choose to finally pull the blinders from his eyes, saw that the angels agenda was not the word of God and choose to do the right thing. That he died doing that is admirable but also doesn't absolve him of all previous sins or wrongdoings IMO.
I still find this sudden trust in Castiel from both Dean and now Sam weird and OCC for both of them given what they know and have experienced from Castiel and the angels. They should be much more suspicious of any supernatural creature than they have been written as this season.
Last I find that Castiel's lack of not coming clean about it being him letting Sam out of the panic nor owing up to his own part of starting the Apocalypse, the epitome of hypocrisy. This for me makes his friendship with Dean even more fake and build on lies. Trust comes from honesty and Castiel has been far from honest with neither brother.
I find a lot of Castiel actions shady and they can be seen from very different angles. His fans will of cause interpreted things in the most positive way while other viewers are more skeptic.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 02:53 am (UTC)(link)Yeah, they've been suspicious of Cas all throughout S4, for good cause, but it's not like there wasn't a progression to where Castiel's loyalties lay, culminating in the S4 finale when Cas' actions evidenced that he no longer trusted his brothers or the Will of Heaven, but he trusted Dean. He doesn't have his own ideas exactly of how humanity works - Cas is looking at humans in completely differently light than what he's used to for the past 1,000 years - but he trusts Dean's perspective. I would think that Dean realizes this.
The not-coming clean part - we don't know what's going on with that. It hasn't been brought up AT ALL yet in S5, so we can't say that Cas hasn't owned up to it. The fake phone call hasn't been brought up, either, and that was equally huge as how it affected Sam's actions. If they never bring up it again in the show, we can say that was a plothole. If they bring it up and it gets glossed over, then it's bad writing. If they bring it up and Cas goes, "NOTHING TO DO WITH ME", then we can go into his hypocrisy.
And, you know, people who are neutral about his character don't find cause to view him skeptically. And, you know, I can do a neutral reading and see that the show intends him to be just an ally. As it takes work to view him as part of a possible ship, you'd have to put into the same amount of work to view him as a "shady" character. Really, the show doesn't intend that, at all.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 02:03 pm (UTC)(link)I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Castiel not owning up to his actions during 4 season if it wasn't because he specifically has used his own "sacrifice" to push blame on the brothers and not himself and have repeatedly criticized both Sam and Dean's choices but conveniently forgotten to mention his own screw ups. He has no right to pass any judgment over them when he is up too the neck deep in it himself. So his hypocrisy has been seen on the show more than once.
And, you know, people who are neutral about his character don't find cause to view him skeptically. Okay you might feel this way but that doesn't make it automatically true for everyone else. And who are you to say what intent the show has? It's all in the reading of it and entirely subjective for everyone, be you a skeptic, a fan, a neutral or a hater of Castiel.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 09:33 pm (UTC)(link)Uh, the show's not that complicated. The way it portrays the brothers' relationship is unique to other stuff on TV, but the show pretty much wears its themes and issues on its sleeve. You may not always be able to predict where they're going with certain stuff, but you can pretty much tell how things currently are.
Castiel is a trusted ally of the boys; the only possible black mark against him is that moment in the last ep between him and Meg where is it was weirdly sexual. The fact that was it looked like he was about to kiss her - that's a neutral reading. What it could possibly mean, neutrally, in the worst case scenario, I think, is that Cas is going to experience more weakness of the flesh (as foreshadowed in "The End"), and that might result in being a liability in a critical moment. But that's just speculation. Now you could do a "Cas is shady" reading as say that he's going to get in bed with the demons at some point, and I can do my "I'm a Cas fan" reading and say that he was just stalling her until he could utilize her as a demon bridge. Or this could fall into the show's many plotholes and mean nothing at all. So again - it's not that hard to separate all these readings. We can debate what it all might mean, but as far as what's passed - they're pretty clear as to where all the players are currently at.
Now as far as Castiel blaming the boys: "You and your brother destroyed the world" - neutrally, that's pretty evident that he finds them culpable. But also neutrally, judging from his behavior, he doesn't harbor any ill-will or resentment toward them.
My interpretation as to the meaning behind all that: Cas was simply stating a fact. When he got in Dean's face in 5x02, Dean had been dissing his belief that he could find God, his father. The show being what it is about fathers, that's huge. That whole speech that Cas spouts off can be interpreted, "I've sacrificed a fucking lot for your sake, so you would do well to kindly shut the fuck up." And as far as Sam - the Antichrist was a huge threat to Cas' family, the other angels, and probably himself as well. Sam posits the question of what if the Antichrist makes the right choice, and Cas has to bring up, because it's true and letting the Antichrist live could have dire effects for him and his kind, that Sam didn't make the right choice. Fact.
But remember that Cas is willing to die for Sam now. He'll "die first" before he'll let Lucifer get to him. And he's obviously in Dean's corner. He trusts both the boys, is willing to go along with their plans - if he truly "blamed" them, in the wholly negative sense of the word - "your evil, neglectful, weak actions lead to this" - why would he trust them with anything? That would be like Dean trusting Ruby after she helped bring about the Apocalypse.
Now as far as Cas' culpability in letting Sam out of the panic room - personally, I think that a case of, literally, "I just opened the door, but you walked through it". Sam chose to knock Bobby out instead of asking him for help. Sam choose to seek Ruby out instead of his brother. How long would they have had to keep Sam there before he stopped feeling like he had to kill Lilith? It wasn't just the demon blood.
But it's not like Cas didn't feel like shit after he did it, just like he obviously felt like shit for turning Anna in. Hopefully when we see Anna again, both those things will get addressed, but honestly, Cas' actions really don't make a difference one way or another. Sam was hell-bent on that path, no matter what. A few more hours in the panic room wasn't going to change that.
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I don't even ship Dean and Castiel. Not seriously anyway. I only pay attention to what's on my screen. I never said they were best buddies holding hands and skipping through the park.
Their friendship didn't come out of nowhere. It's been building since the beginning of season four. Dean gave Castiel his nickname in the same breath he told Sam he threatened to kill him. Castiel trusted Dean with his secret about having doubts. Dean saved Castiel from Alistair despite the fact that the battle was supposed to get the Angels out of there (be it by death or something else). Twice when Castiel wouldn't do what Dean wanted, Dean [b]manipulated[/b] him into doing it by threatening to end their alliance.
Castiel is not perfect. He manipulated Dean and let Sam out of the panic room. Did him dying erase that fact? No. Does it erase it when he hypocritically lays blame to Sam and Dean for starting the Apocalypse when he shares [i]equal[/i] blame? No. When Sam walks around looking all constipated and boo-hoo'ing that he was too stupid and arrogant to listen to the warnings about Ruby and what he was doing, that's not taking any of the blame off his shoulders either. Hell, Dean was standing right outside the door at the chapel yet while shouting to Sam, he never once thought to shout, "Sam,don't kill Lilith! She's the last seal!" So he's as much to blame as anybody.
The fact is that they've all made mistakes. The fact is also that Sam chose Ruby over Sam because he was bloodthirsty and thought he could do the right thing the wrong way. And, lastly, the fact is that in the end, Castiel chose Dean over Heaven because he finally wanted to do the right thing the right way.
I don't even know why I wasted time writing this out. I can no better change your mind than I can a zebra's stripes. But, here it is. I think the show pretty much sucks ass now (due to lack of action and abundance in predictability), and I'll be the first to point out when characters (Cas included) are being OOC, but that doesn't suddenly make everything you don't like OOC (or vice-versa) nor does it change the fact that they [i]did[/i] happen, all of it, the good the bad and the ugly, and therefore they're true. The only thing left to decide is whether you're willing to accept them and move on or sit behind your computer and whine about it like a baby who had their candy stolen. Apparently you've already made up your mind.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 02:50 am (UTC)(link)Wow and fuck you too.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 03:04 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 03:05 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 03:31 am (UTC)(link)As you started with the insults, I have no interest in talking to you, if the other anon comes back I'll pick it up with her.
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(Anonymous) 2009-12-19 02:57 am (UTC)(link)And what the hell's with the bitchery?
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If the bitchery is referring to me, I'm not being bitchy at all. I'm simply stating a fact. If that makes me a bitch than at least I'm an honest one.