fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1102 ]

[ SECRET POST #1102 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1102 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Dr Who starts below]

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155. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]

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165. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]

Notes:

This isn't even all the Who secrets there are, just the ones I randomly found today.

Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 325 secrets from Secret Submission Post #158.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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Tell me you are not arguing that black people being excited to see a black heroine is somehow oppressing you...

No, I am saying making her black and then a woman, and then an individual sucks. Yes, she's black, but she's also intelligent, gifted and in one of the best and most complex relationships ever to grace a screen yet somehow it's all boiling down to race.

Ok. Here's the thing. Can you name *another* intelligent, gifted, complex female character in Sci Fi who is the romantic lead and is also black?

............

That.

That is why it boils down to race. Because she is IT. Imagine growing up and never seeing *anyone* who looks like you onscreen. Imagine one day, suddenly, in a huge, iconic, blockbuster movie- someone does. Darn tootin' you're gonna be excited, and wanna relate to that character, and wanna write about her, and romanticize her and cuddle her and call her George.

Maybe when being female, black and strong all at the same time are *not* an anomaly onscreen, no one will notice or care anymore. But that day is unfortunately a long, long time coming. Til then, it's not killing the rest of us to give black female sci fi fans their moment.

You call this a moment: http://community.livejournal.com/spock_uhura/653237.html ? Really?

And mind you, this is from someone else's response here.

Yeah, it's one conversation. And I don't understand why it is at all threatening to you or your own interpretation of the characters.

Show me a comm centered around a pairing that has these kinds of wanky posts? And this is one of many, a few still remain but most are often deleted when the racefail spirals out of control.

Ok- you lost me as to your argument...?

First off, every pairing on the planet has whacky ass wank. Have you BEEN to an Ianto/Jack (Torchwood) comm lately? How about the Great Spuffy Wars of 2000-something? You don't need race to get wank. All you need is someone shipping someone else.

But when you talk about racefail, are you implying that black fans are being racist by talking about Uhura/Spock in regards to race? Because that's crazypants. If you mean something else, clarify, please?

I'm implying fans at the comm the OP mentioned are crazy. First Uhura is not black enough, then it's onto a discussion about what makes a person black ect http://community.livejournal.com/spock_uhura/130803.html. Why so much focus on this one dimension about her when race is not supposed to speak on her character? Her substance and worth? The relationship she has with spock?

_{...Wasn't there some wank about her hair, too?}

That comm is like how 4chan's /u/ is always feminism discussion time, except with race.

yes! this is what i'm talking about. that kind of stuff is secondary to the love story that's there and people are getting all pissed about her hair, her features, the fact the actress playing her only *looks black*. and then have the nerve to tell others they are racist.

_{Hey, the guy who plays Sulu isn't Japanese/Filipino...}

tbph, I stopped going there when "discussion" posts that always seemed to devolve into hissing at the rival ship started to outnumber fic/art about the pairing.

rival ship as in k/s? slash always outweighs the het, just the way of all fandoms.

the comm has just so much butthurt, but considering who's running it, it's to be expected

Who else? Yeah, being a primarily het girl myself, I've accepted that fact.

_{Oh? Why the butthurt? I've been out of the loop for a while, mind sharing the details?}

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-01-12 05:08 (UTC) - Expand

Are you the same anon I've been talking to? Cause I think my other comment upthread addressed this...

Uhura is the only black, female romantic lead in mainstream sci fi. THE ONLY ONE. However fans who look like her/can relate to her want to embrace her, debate her, etc etc. is really not something I want to judge.

But even if some of these conversations are wanky, uhm, so? Black fans can be as wanky as the rest of us. It doesn't take anything away from your experience.

Frankly, I don't think the stuff you're pointing to IS wanky, though. I think it's a natural result of her being the ONLY FREAKING CHARACTER OF HER KIND.

There's Zoe from Firefly, Selena from 28 days later, Karen from Blade. She's not the only one. And again, not black fans as you suggest, but FANS AT THIS COMM. Or are the only fans there black?

She is the only strong black female character who is the romantic lead of an iconic figure in sci fi. Being able to name three or ten more black women in sci fi in general doesn't counteract the fact that the number of white women in similar roles exponentially outnumbers women who are not white, and has for a long long time.

I don't frequent the comm. you linked to. I can't tell color over the internet. But the original post by the OP suggested she felt marginalized by the discussion of Uhura's race. Comments like these tend to be made by white people, who have the privilege of *not* noticing race, because we are the "default" setting for it in media.

rawles made an awesome post about why Uhura's race IS so important to black sci fi fen. I certainly couldn't say it better than that.

IF the discussion on her race is being led by other black female fans, then yeah, I think the rest of us ought to shut the hell up about it being "oppressive" in some way. There's other places to have the conversations you want to have, where race isn't included. There will always be those places, because race makes people uncomfortable, and they don't wanna talk about it. No one is saying you HAVE to talk about race. But telling people who are discussing it to shut up is not ok.

Being able to name three or ten more black women in sci fi in general doesn't counteract the fact that the number of white women in similar roles exponentially outnumbers women who are not white, and has for a long long time.

you asked me to name another and I did. your rules, not mine.

Unlike the OP, I can't feel marginalized by the race discussion because I am non-white but I can understand their feelings about not wanting continuous race-themed posts in a comm that is supposed to be about a ship. There are other comms for that, especially when the door doesn't swing both ways in the discussions and mods play sides.

(no subject)

kita0610.livejournal.com - 2010-01-12 04:12 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-01-12 04:18 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

kita0610.livejournal.com - 2010-01-12 04:21 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2010-01-12 04:23 (UTC) - Expand

I think I'm starting to understand, anon. Race does matter but when do we stop talking about it?

This POV has always kind of puzzled me. I mean... am I the only person on earth who never as a child liked a character just because they physically resembled me in any way shape or form?

Did you have your pick of ones who did vs ones who didn't? I think the choice is the thing. If you never have to worry about seeing yourself represented in media, then it's different. If there is no one ever who looks like you, in magazines or on television, you start to wonder why not. Usually the answers aren't nice.

Well... I've never thought of myself as resembling anyone in any media I was ever exposed to as a child. Or as an adult, really. I was a chubby kid with atrociously ugly olive-colored straight hair, thick eyebrows, a huge nose, and five moles on one cheek. The fact is that the Creator took a look at my genes and said "thou shalt sure as hell not look like other women, not that thou'd want to." I also don't have the same sexuality as anybody worth identifying with, or the same gender identity. As an adult, I'm a chubby genderqueer asexual dyke who still has five moles on one cheek, bushy eyebrows, but now has curly black hair instead of fugly straight olive hair. So no. I've never had my pick of anyone in media who resembles me. And I know the reason is because I appeal only to a very limited audience of exactly three people on the planet who find me pretty/sexy. I also have undesireable genes which is to say I'm Mediterranian, Russian, and Serbian/Hungarian. So I have olive skin and features that identify me as the descendant of peoples who do NOT fit the American aesthetic. And no, that's not "flattering," but no, I don't care. I like who I am and how I look and the media can go fuck itself.

I think that's awesome for you (seriously, no sarcasm intended). It's obviously not the case for everyone.

Yeah, I know... it's just such a foreign mindset to me, that someone should care that they look like someone in the media without trying. I have done that -- tried, I mean. I looked SO MUCH like Elton John when I was 17, but it was because I wanted to. Before then, nobody. It just seems so odd to me to invest your own value as a person on looking like someone in a story.

Uh Zoe in Firefly??? Kendra in Buffy??

Please read my comment again. Romantic lead, not character with ten lines who's dead.

I'll agree that Zoe was pretty groundbreaking even though her relationship with Wash succumbed to Joss' no one can be happy issues.
My point though is that Uhura remains in a class by herself as Trek is mainstream, and Spock is an iconic figure in American culture. Uhura is therefore still the only black female to occupy such a role in our collective psyche, and that is why her race is significant to women who share it.

You might want to focus on other aspects of her character and that's cool, but the idea that the race discussion needs to be curtailed is offensive to those who are so excited to finally have it.

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