Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2010-02-04 05:21 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2010-02-04 05:21 pm
[ SECRET POST #1126 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1126 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
__________________________________________________
102.
__________________________________________________
103.
__________________________________________________
104.
__________________________________________________
105.
__________________________________________________
106.
__________________________________________________
107.
__________________________________________________
108.
__________________________________________________
109.
__________________________________________________
110.
__________________________________________________
111.
__________________________________________________
112.
__________________________________________________
113.
__________________________________________________
114.
__________________________________________________
115.
__________________________________________________
116.
__________________________________________________
117.
__________________________________________________
118.
__________________________________________________
119.
__________________________________________________
120.
__________________________________________________
121.
__________________________________________________
122.
__________________________________________________
123.
__________________________________________________
124.
__________________________________________________
125.
__________________________________________________
126.
__________________________________________________
127.
__________________________________________________
128.
__________________________________________________
129.
__________________________________________________
130.
__________________________________________________
131.
__________________________________________________
132.
__________________________________________________
133.
__________________________________________________
134.
__________________________________________________
135.
__________________________________________________
136.
__________________________________________________
137.
__________________________________________________
138.
__________________________________________________
139.
__________________________________________________
140.
__________________________________________________
141.
__________________________________________________
142.
__________________________________________________
143.
__________________________________________________
144.
__________________________________________________
145.
__________________________________________________
146.
__________________________________________________
147.
__________________________________________________
148.
__________________________________________________
149.
__________________________________________________
150.
__________________________________________________
151.
__________________________________________________
152.
__________________________________________________
153.
__________________________________________________
154.
__________________________________________________
155.
__________________________________________________
156.
__________________________________________________
157.
__________________________________________________
158.
__________________________________________________
159.
__________________________________________________
160.
__________________________________________________
161.
__________________________________________________
162.
__________________________________________________
163.
__________________________________________________
164.
__________________________________________________
165.
__________________________________________________
166.
__________________________________________________
167.
__________________________________________________
168.
__________________________________________________
169.
__________________________________________________
170.
__________________________________________________
171.
__________________________________________________
172.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 078 secrets from Secret Submission Post #161.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Not the same anonymous...
(Anonymous) 2010-02-05 02:54 am (UTC)(link)I'm not that big of an FMA fan, but I would've thought that during the Ishbal war we saw a very weak Riza who seemed to, at least for a moment, doubt her actions to kill innocent lives. She may not have a full, complete character arc compared to others, but I just wanted to point out that Riza did have her moments of weakness.
She's the type who, in my opinion, doesn't really have much dreams of her own thus when she hears Roy's dream of a better world, it influences her and she supports him. In a sense, she became (for lack of a better word) stronger supporting a dream/Roy. You can see during the war she wasn't sure if she did the right thing, but she strengthened (why do I keep using that word? XD) her resolve and decided to cast her doubts aside and go forward, making her rather stoic and mary sue-ish in our eyes.
As you said, different people have different views of strength. I think we each have our own valid views of how "strong" Riza is, though I do not agree with your use of that article as I really do not see Riza as the girls used in the examples there. But to each their own. I totally agree that she could have been better written though...
Re: Not the same anonymous...
Re: Not the same anonymous...
(Anonymous) 2010-02-05 03:43 am (UTC)(link)Like I said, to each their own. Certain people consider Riza as weak because she lacks valid weaknesses and is mary-sue-ish in their eyes. That's really up to them. But if you wish to argue about it, well... do expect some counter arguments. :) I mean no harm at all.
Re: Not the same anonymous...
I understand what you're saying. There are two types of strength at play, here. One is, as I said, the strength of resolve (which is displayed by most, if not all, of the protagonists in the FMA manga). The other is the strength of change and adaptation. You grow, you do something that you would not have done in the beginning. Maybe you break a few moral codes that you hold dear, but then the strength lies in moving on. (This is, ironically, the story of the FMA anime. Just goes to show you how different the two are.)
Re: Not the same anonymous...
(Anonymous) 2010-02-05 04:18 am (UTC)(link)I find Riza a strong character in my own way, and it's for some of the reasons which you've mentioned. Some people consider her supporting Roy as weakness as it shows she can't stand on her own two feet, when I think she's strong for being clear with her resolve and doing the best she can for a dream which, I think, they both share. It's very selective, that's why I find some people's arguments against her to be really one sided. It's all their opinion, but if they wish to argue about it, at least do it right and not paint the wrong picture.
Re: Not the same anonymous...
Riza IS strong. This is her main defining characteristic.
But does that mean she is a strong CHARACTER? Meaning, is she written in a way that fleshes her strength out, gives it an individual meaning unique to her? I don't think so. She's more generically strong, and more generically stoic... just like her love of Roy is more generically faithful. I don't think there is anything wrong with the general outline of her actions, or her life choices, and there is definitely nothing wrong with the type of person she is. I just can't help but think that Arakawa sacrificed individuality (making Riza stand out as a unique person) in favour of relatability (writing her to be someone to whom readers can imprint their own motives and personalities).
Riza's blandness works in some ways: Arakawa is telling a plot driven story, and if the characters were too well fleshed out, then THEY might drive events in a way that takes the plot direction out of her control... if you've ever written a story where you let the characters be fully fleshed out, you know what I mean. Letting the characters be fully human can often confound and complicate a plot, and there is a great risk of the story being derailed. Arakawa prioritizes plot over characterization, and this is not always a wrong choice.
But for Riza, I see this as a failed choice, since I think Riza deserves to be more of a central player than she has been allowed to be. The story would have been stronger if her actions were not only shown, but better explained and explored. Who ROY is depends a lot on who she is, after all, since her decisions made a profound impact in his life... and being cheated of good explanations ends up detracting from Roy's characterization as well as her own. It also is really a shitty way to communicate an epic romance, which is what I think Arakawa wants us to see between them. They are obviously intended to be an example of canonical devotion and love, and yet it is so easy for a lot of fans to completely write her out of the equation because the manga doesn't properly emphasize her position in Roy's life, or her importance.
Honestly? The cynical part of me suspects that Arakawa underwrites her main female characters in order to increase marketability of the males.
randomly popping back in here.
First of all, that is such a wrong assumption that I don't quite know how to answer it. (And I mean this in the nicest way possible. Really! No offense meant,
It is difficult, yes, to combine characterization and plot effectively, but the payoff is worth it in the end, if the writer/author/artist can pull it off. Arakawa's shoddy characterization isn't a side-effect of having an epic plot. It's a failure on her part as an author at effective characterization, because a good author is able to pull all these threads together to make one coherent whole.
Re: randomly popping back in here.
It's interesting that you bring up GRRM, since although it is true that he is capable of creating a complex plot with a series of complex characters, I find A Song of Ice and Fire to be tedious, grim, and I suspect, going nowhere, since I personally doubt he will ever finish it. Although the first two observations are merely personal preference, the last point is the salient one. Because if he can't finish the story, then his ability to bring it all together is ultimately meaningless, because that would suggest he has allowed his ambitions to outstrip his abilities. It may not be possible for him to sustain that level of writing all the way to the finish line.
If he DOES finish it, then it would be worthwhile to say that he can pull it off, but he hasn't yet. He's not even close.
And that brings me back to Arakawa. I believe that she is NOT overreaching, and that she will finish her story. It will not be perfect, but it's the story she's able to write, and although it is theoretically possible that she could do more with her characterization, I doubt that she could on a practical level. She is like a lot of writers: she is not perfect, she has her flaws as well as her strengths. And although I could wish that she were better at characterizations, I appreciate that she is telling us the story in a way that means she is likely to finish it. Arakawa is not a bad writer because she sacrifices characterization for plot... she's just not the best kind of writer.
The number of writers who are good enough to balance characterization and plot, to do it in a complex manner, and who can finish? Few. Few indeed.
Re: randomly popping back in here.
Of course, this is assuming that Arakawa's ending will not make us want to bash our heads into the wall. I'm seeing a very quick downhill slide into Harry Potter-esque epilogue, but that may just be me being horribly cynical. If the ending is that bad, however, I think I would prefer her not to finish it at all, and it would also be an indication that her plot has run away from her, in that she set herself up for a grand ending but couldn't quite make it. In any case, here's to hoping the ending will be good, though I honestly cannot imagine her ending the story in any way that will be . . . decent. Not even good, but just plain decent. Again, cynicism.
Clearly, she just needs to have Cthulu come out of the ground and eat everyone. I think that would be grand. *g*
Re: randomly popping back in here.
The things that I love which I consider perfect are also things that I am content to love for what they are, and I don't end up seeking out the fandom, or coming up with my own alternate story ideas, or even getting really deep into shipping... a good story simply satisfies me, and although I will read truly good stories over and over again and consider myself a fan, I don't need anything more than that to make me happy.
FMA... is good enough to have captured my interest. It is not good enough to satisfy me, to truly satisfy me. If the ending is a train wreck, that might end up just making me be an even bigger fan, because it could easily inspire me to write even more fanfiction for the series than I have already. :) That said, I am not so selfish to actually hope for a train wreck ending, nor am I that foolish. It would be great if she can finish it well, or at least decently. We'll see!
I disagree with you about preferring her not to finish at all. As my friend
I should point out that this discussion has been a lot of fun. You're smart and articulate and what you say is interesting, regardless of whether I agree or not. Thanks! (I'm going to bed soon, so I might not reply any more this evening)
Re: randomly popping back in here.
The things that I love which I consider perfect are also things that I am content to love for what they are, and I don't end up seeking out the fandom, or coming up with my own alternate story ideas, or even getting really deep into shipping... a good story simply satisfies me, and although I will read truly good stories over and over again and consider myself a fan, I don't need anything more than that to make me happy.
I'm mostly the same way with the things I truly like. I try not to mess with the things I love, but for a bit of a different reason - not necessarily because the canon satisfies me, but because I'm afraid to taint it with my touch. Dumb way of thinking, right? (People say to write what you love and all that good stuff . . .) It's why I don't actually write about the characters/pairings I like all that often. I'm just afraid of messing them up and having people draw the "wrong" conclusions about that character/pairing from the portrayal in a story, and then I'd feel absolutely horrible. Ideal world in my head, but once it gets down on paper, it's absolute dreck, and people will think what they will. So the only thing I can do to keep people from making these "wrong" assumptions is to . . . not write the story! Hah. My logic fails me even now, sometimes.
We'll have to disagree on the "no ending" side, but I'm showing my bias. Open endings fascinate me. Also, I'm actually not overly concerned with what happens in the canon after the initial set-up. I'll bitch about it or praise it sometimes, but - you know, it's fandom and there will always be stories. I think the best phrase I can use to describe it is "time out of mind", if that makes sense. It's there, and I'm glad it exists, but I don't care for it beyond a certain point in its existence. This would explain why the ending of Shamballa doesn't piss me off as much as it should. Open-ended and I don't particularly care! Hurrah, it's a win-win situation for me.
And yes, this has been an interesting discussion! I normally don't come out of my shell because I'm afraid of wank (and this secret inspires all sorts of wank), but I'm glad I decided to chime in, because you've raised some interesting points. Your initial comment about people often mistaking a badass character for a well-written character is a good one, and it's one of the things that I've been trying to articulate for a while but just haven't been able to. (I might also go so far as to say people do mistake badassery for strength, in the complete sense of the word. A badass character isn't even necessarily strong as a person or well-written as a character.) In any case, I feel that much of what's going on with Riza is that Arakawa isn't entirely sure whether she wants to make Riza a character or a plot device, so she's stuck her in some horrible limbo between the two extremes, and it rubs some people the wrong way.