fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1126 ]

[ SECRET POST #1126 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1126 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 078 secrets from Secret Submission Post #161.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Nope. Mary Sues are defined more by how they impact the story and by how other characters to them. You can have a completely plain, even average character--like Bella from Twilight--and still have them be a Mary Sue.

But, as you appear to have misread my post in your defensiveness, I'll say it again: Riza is not a Mary Sue, because she doesn't have the kind of black-hole effect on the plot that Mary Sues usually do. But she has some Sueish traits. Lots of characters in the series do, though, because Arakawa has made the cast so extensive that very few of them get developed well, if at all.

OT: Bella calls herself plain and average, yet every guy within a 5 mile radius falls in love with her, and she is the only person in the worlds who's mind Edward can't read. So she has her own special speshulness, in her own special way.

Hence why I say that the reactions of other characters are important. Aside from being apparently quite attractive, she's a really boring person. The fact that this has no impact on the way that people perceive her is what defines her as a Sue.

I don't really recall a point where all the characters gushed over her looks anywhere in canon. And you think she's boring, but other's don't. Have you thought about why you think she's sueish and boring? By any chance, do you tend to think that way about female characters in other canons?

Why is she sueish and boring? Hmm...

She has few discernible interests beyond reading and cars; she has few defining character traits beyond complaining a lot and being clumsy; she's a jerk to her father and nobody calls her out on it; her entire character basically revolves around a boy with whom she seems to have nothing in common.

I very rarely think that female protagonists are boring though. My current favorite character is Kyoko Mogami from Skip Beat, for example. Followed closely by Yoko Nakajima from The Twelve Kingdoms. Then comes Temeraire from his titular novel.

I agree with your Thoughts On Bella. She's a very specific type of Sue - someone that is very easy for any teenage girl to imprint on (as it were) because there are very few discernible character traits to her but the traits that she does have are ones that most teenage girls can relate to. She's basically a wish-fulfilment character (eg, she's says she's very unattractive and no boys ever notice her - a lot of girls feel like that. Then, suddenly, a whole lot of boys are interested in her - which is exactly what a lot of teen girls wish would happen to them.)

Kyoko is amazing btw &HEARTS;

...Oh lol, I thought you were talking about Riza, not Bella, which confused me. Yes, Bella is a sueish character and boring to boot.

Riza is not a Mary Sue, because she doesn't have the kind of black-hole effect on the plot that Mary Sues usually do. But she has some Sueish traits. Lots of characters in the series do, though, because Arakawa has made the cast so extensive that very few of them get developed well, if at all.

Ding, ding! We have a winner!

Many of the secondary characters in the manga are developed just enough so that they can serve the purpose of furthering the plot. Once they've done that, character development is pretty much dropped. That is why many of the secondary characters tend to come off as either underdeveloped or a bit Sueish/Stuish. Their strengths are extolled or elaborated upon, but then Arakawa needs to move on, so we never get to see any of the characters' flaws. They're sacrificed for the sake of story movement.

In that case, they aren't Mary Sues, they're just plot points. Canon characters as Mary Sues, except in extreme cases like Bella Swan, goes against the original definition of the term. Arakawa isn't using Riza as some sort of wish fulfillment for herself and when you get down to it, that is the one thing that ties all Mary Sues together.

Dude, I didn't say they were Mary Sues. In fact, I quoted the part of the message saying, "Riza is not a Mary Sue," and then I expounded on that point. =|

I totally ended up mixing your post up with the other anon's posting in my head, sorry. /o\

Except that I haven't called any character a Mary Sue, either--simply pointed out that they have traits generally thought of as Sueish due to a lack of proper development.

Amendment!

Having said that, I don't know what I consider to be worse: Mary Sues or characters trying to pass off as characters when they are really just plot devices. Just food for thought.

TBH, this is one thing that really bothers me about the writing of FMA. Because so few of her characters much depth, it often feel like the plot is moving along inorganically. Many of her characters, heroes and villains alike, seem to have been stitched into an already woven tapestry. When, ideally, I feel like the characters should be the ones (or at least seem to be the ones) weaving that tapestry.

Some people prefer to have the plot take precedence, though this is a matter of taste. And tbh, the characters are woven in to a big tapestry- it's kind of a big thing in the sotry of FMA, seeing as they're swept up in a plot spanning centuries. Thematically, it fits.

And being too character driven in an epic plot can lead to disaster. *cough*EndofBattlestarGalactica*cough*

That's not a problem to do with a story being character driven; it's a problem to do with the writers not knowing what the fuck they're doing.

Also, I tend to find the plot seems to be inorganic when you're waiting months between chapters- it helps to go back and reread it all in one go, it seems much smoother.

And I do think that things started moving a little fast post-Briggs, but I'll take "A little fast" over the months of pointless battles that are in most shounen any day.

Dude, I wish I knew who you were, because that is precisely my problem with the FMA manga. (At least, one of the problems, in any case.) It's nice to know there's someone out there who feels the same.

I know some people will pass it off as a matter of taste (plot-driven story vs. character-driven story), when it is anything but. It is very possible to have an epic, sprawling plot that is still character-driven at its very core. George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series is a good example of a character-driven epic story. It doesn't feel as if there's a hand hovering in the air moving the characters around like chess pieces. It feels like the characters themselves and their motivations are moving the plot forward. It's not external, it's internal. Plot-driven and character-driven stories are not mutually exclusive, no matter what most people say. Because the story starts with the character, when you break it all down. You can have a story without a plot, but you cannot have a story without a character.

It's funny that you should bring up A Song Of Ice and Fire, since I often think of it as something to contrast with the FMA manga. It has a comparably-sized cast, a similar storytelling style, and a plot that is arguable even more far-reaching and epic. And yet, it seems to avoid all of the biggest flaws found in FMA.

I like to think that A Song Of Ice and Fire is what happens when the characterization and tone of the first anime is combined with the large-scale, solid plotting of the manga.

You can have a story without a plot, but you cannot have a story without a character.

I agree completely.

I'm very curious regarding your identity now, anon. (Mostly because you sound so much like me it's somewhat frightening. I've been comparing A Song of Ice and Fire and the FMA manga for so long and I've never come across someone else who's done the same thing.)

A Song of Ice and Fire is the series I like to pull out when people tell me that characterization needs to be sacrificed for plot when you're going for an epic story. All I can say is that they're not inversely related; it's just that many authors either don't have the skill or are too lazy to pull the threads together to make a coherent whole. But when you do combine plot and characterization effectively, you get such an amazing story with so much fucking depth.

Also, I'll throw in this: A Song of Ice and Fire is not too scared to get down and dirty with anything and everything. When people tell me the FMA manga is "dark" because "Arakawa is not scared to kill off her characters", I can do nothing else but laugh.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1126 ]

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