fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1148 ]

[ SECRET POST #1148 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1148 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Zachary Quinto]

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[Stargate SG-1]

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[Blazblue: Calamity Trigger]

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[AKA: Lies are like wishes]

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155. [SPOILERS for Lost]

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157. [SPOILERS for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #164.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - ships it ], [ 1 - would hit it ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Oh, yay! "I'm a member of group X, and what you said doesn't offend me, so it must not be offensive!" I love this shit.

lol this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Come back to me when you can read things without looking for ways to pull out your bingo card bullshit.

- a 'self-hating' oriental

It bugs me down when people decide that, just because something doesn't bother them personally, the other person must be overreacting. It's disrespectful and it sets you up as the Speaker for POC (whether or not that's what you're trying to do, that's how white people will read it). Where, exactly, did you get self-hating out of that?

- a Latina who's worked really hard not to be self-hating

I'm setting myself up as the Speaker for POC? If it's white people that are assuming that, don't turn it on what I do or don't find offensive. Turn it on them. I have no obligation to be offended by everything everyone of my particular minority finds offensive, and I have no obligation to stay silent and keep my opinions or feelings to myself when the subject comes up.

I have no obligation to be offended by everything everyone of my particular minority finds offensive, and I have no obligation to stay silent and keep my opinions or feelings to myself when the subject comes up.

I never said you did. But portraying everyone who disagrees with you as being whiny, or as being upset over nothing is disrespectful. We're not a hive mind, it's quite possible that other POC have had experiences that you haven't, which have made them more sensitive to certain words or phrases. Or stereotypes, for that matter. For example, I'm Puerto Rican and lived in areas that are predominately Puerto Rican, so the 'all Latinos are illegal immigrants' doesn't bother me as much as it does a Mexican-American friend of mine, because I haven't had to deal with it as much as he has.

Where did I say anyone was whiny or upset over nothing? I said I'm sick and tired of white people telling me I should be offended when I'm not.

This I had no idea before that I was supposed to get upset and offended everytime someone referred to me by a word some people consider a slur, implies that people are getting offended over something silly and unimportant.

... how?

Probably because you followed it up with a comment about how 'easy going' you are. If you're not offended because you're such an easy-going person, what does that say about the people who are?

That they are not as easy-going. That's fine. Everyone has different standards of what upsets them. Nothing wrong with not being easy-going. My main problem is with white people getting upset and making it all about their special knowledge of POC issues, not other asians being bothered by the words.

Fair enough. My own issues here are coming out (for whatever reason, people assume that I'm really insanely angry when I'm not), so this probably wasn't a good time for me to comment anyway.

My main problem is with white people getting upset and making it all about their special knowledge of POC issues

That's why I try to focus on stuff written by other POC.

No it doesn't. It implies she's sick of stupid white people jumping in to ~*~*~saaave~*~*~ her from hearing ~*~*~*those words~*~*~*, assuming she absolutely must care.

If some able-bodied person heard a friend call me "crip" and started ranting about how it's the wrong word, I'd tell him to piss right off, because that's a privileged person dictating how someone else should talk about me.

Other people with disabilities can get into the politics of reclaiming words with me and discuss with me whether reclaiming is wise. But able-bodied people who want to take that discussion over can fuck right off and leave that discussion to people who've actually been called "cripple" pejoratively, thanks.

That's called 'splaining, and it's something a lot of people who take part in these discussions try hard not to do to.

Saying that these discussions shouldn't take place because a few annoying things tend to happen in them, instead of saying those annoying things should stupid, is stupid.

It implies she's sick of stupid white people jumping in to ~*~*~saaave~*~*~ her from hearing ~*~*~*those words~*~*~*, assuming she absolutely must care.

Except that she wasn't just talking about white people, since she mentioned 'other members of marginalized groups.' The implication that if she personally doesn't find something offensive, it must be unimportant irritated me. Especially since it ended with the whole 'I must be a baaad minority' (I suppose that could've been sincere, but I think that she was really trying to say that she was one of the rare 'good' minorities, who didn't take things too seriously) and a random comment about being 'easy going' (anyone who does get offended must be ANGRY ALL THE TIME). Like I said in the comment thread, I've heard a lot of this sort of shaming before and I'm sick of it. I can be a nice, sweet, good-natured person and still find something personally offensive.

Can I also point out that what she said was entirely irrelevant in this discussion? We don't know the race of most of the commenters (though I would bet that the vast majority are white) and the odds of the OP being a POC are basically zero. So there was no white people telling POC what they can, or cannot, say.

Okay, anon, I must be misunderstanding you totally, because I'm not sure how "what she said was entirely irrelevant" if you were responding to her. I must be misreading -- what's that mean now?

And honestly, I don't understand why you feel as defensive as you do here. There are some groups in which everyone is assumed to be automatically offended by something, and if they're not, they're called choice names. (In the disability community, people sometimes call other people "curebies" if they express the attitude that their disability is upsetting, impedes them, is a problem, etc. and don't automatically accept all aspects of the social model.) (FWIW, I'm very big on the social model, but I see no reason why denying people's experiences that don't neatly fit it makes any sense.)

And... sounds like you wouldn't agree with this, but while I disagree with some things I hear people deemed "curebies" saying, I don't feel attacked by their existing, or like they're claiming to be "good people with disabilities" where I am a "bad" one. If they say I'm oversensitive or the like, sure, I'll get mad. But when someone says "hey, my experience of my disability is different from these people's; I find it painful and annoying and not something I identify with, and I feel weird when people act as though I'm automatically supposed to agree" I don't feel attacked. There are all different kinds of experience of disability.

Not being a POC, I don't know exactly how race is the same or different. But I don't hear anyone telling you how you should feel about anything. I hear someone saying "I feel this way, and I keep hearing that I'm not in solidarity with My People. And funnily enough, very often those telling me I need to be more in tune with My People are... white folks. WTF. Ew."

I think it's very easy sometimes to get a twinge when someone says "I don't feel the same as you," a twinge that feels like hearing "Change your mind." But that's... not what I heard, at least.

I don't know why I'm still doing this, but for some reason this whole thread struck a nerve. Don't feel obligated to respond, since I know that discussions on fandomsecrets move very quickly, and one discussion is forgotten as soon as the next post comes up.

because I'm not sure how "what she said was entirely irrelevant" if you were responding to her.

The 'white people are telling me how to self-identify' was irrelevant, since none of that had happened in this thread. I do want to make it clear how much I hate that and that I do sympathize with the OPs frustration. Because no one had actually done that, arguing that she was only defending herself against the mean people who wouldn't let her ID as oriental (which is absolutely her right) was something of a straw man.

And honestly, I don't understand why you feel as defensive as you do here. There are some groups in which everyone is assumed to be automatically offended by something, and if they're not, they're called choice names

And if POC show any sort of frustration about racist language, people will accuse us of overreacting, being hypersensitive, or even hating all white people. To use one example, about two years ago I needed minor surgery. During the exam, the nurse started to explain the 1-10 pain chart and I said that I often found it confusing, since I know 1 = no pain and 10 = excruciating, but I didn't know what five, three, or seven indicated. She patted my arm and told me that most people couldn't figure it out, so nurses had developed a 'sixth sense' for how much pain people we're in. White people, she told me, would say that they were at a five, no matter how much it hurt, while Puerto Ricans (her term) would call a papercut a ten. When I told several of my (white) friends about it, they kept explaining that it was 'just a joke' and that I shouldn't be so 'into my race.' And this is just one particularly scary example (since that nurse was responsible for my well-being, knowing that she would dismiss me if I said I was in pain was really anxiety producing).

I've also run into people like the OP before. POC commenting happily about how they aren't like those other POC, who are just so angry all the time. They're trying to position themselves as being good, at the expense of those who disagree with them. Because, here's the thing, white people think of POC as a monolithic group. If one says that something is inoffensive, then it must be really, truly inoffensive, and everyone who disagrees is an asshole.

I hear someone saying "I feel this way, and I keep hearing that I'm not in solidarity with My People. And funnily enough, very often those telling me I need to be more in tune with My People are... white folks. WTF. Ew."

Now, my experience with discussions of racism in fandom may be unique, but I've almost never seen that. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it is rare. Furthermore, it erases all of the wonderful, insightful POC from these discussions, by pretending that we don't exist. That's why "it's all a bunch of butthurt white people," is offensive. Hell, look at yesterday's post. Someone said that they were SE Asian and that they Avatar movie offended them and at least one comment accused them of lying about their race.

To get into my own personal life again, it reminds me of something that happened while I was in college, when a friend tried to get me involved in a discussion of Affirmative Action by saying, "Don't you hate AA?" I open my mouth to respond, but she keeps going. "I mean, don't you feel bad knowing that the only reason you're here is because white people feel sorry for you?" She turns back to the other white people in the group. "Only whites like AA, because it appeases their guilt. Real Spanish (her term) people think it's insulting." She never gave me the chance to share my real opinion and I felt like I couldn't defend AA (which I am, ftr, in favor of), because it would mean admitting to my own inferiority. This attitude sets up impossible situations for POC, because if we agree with whatever idea they think only whites support, we're either Angry POC, or Uncle Toms.

Hey, I just want to thank you for answering so thoughtfully and tell you I appreciate your willingness to put all this personal stuff out there to explain your feelings to me. I appreciate that a lot.

And wow, yeah, that pain scale stuff is just *weird.* I can imagine there being cultural differences in how people talk about their pain, but leaping wildly to conclusions like that is ridiculous and, as you say, quite possibly dangerous. And even if she thought it, she had no reason to saddle you with her "wisdom," like you'd appreciate hearing it! Gack.

And I totally get you wrt the idea that people see POC as a monolithic group. I know I've made that mistake, and I've seen the same thing happen with respect to disability as well. People assume that the one person they know has The Truth and that's it and they never have to pay attention to or think about why someone else might feel differently from their buddy.

Hell, look at yesterday's post. Someone said that they were SE Asian and that they Avatar movie offended them and at least one comment accused them of lying about their race.

I hadn't seen that. Wow. Yuck!

a friend tried to get me involved in a discussion of Affirmative Action by saying, "Don't you hate AA?" I open my mouth to respond, but she keeps going. "I mean, don't you feel bad knowing that the only reason you're here is because white people feel sorry for you?" She turns back to the other white people in the group. "Only whites like AA, because it appeases their guilt. Real Spanish (her term) people think it's insulting."

Yikes. Yeah, that's really icky. (And FTR, I was given an accessible room in college that I didn't feel I needed and that I felt really bad about taking, and I was bitter the whole time that I'd been given it because I asked to be in the usual lottery for a slot because I did feel that they were giving it to me for reasons I didn't like, so yeah, my personal opinion on such things is complicated. (FWIW, despite that emotional reaction then, my considered position on whether things like AA should exist is "Yes.") But preempting your chance to talk about your own opinions by presuming you should feel insulted is gross. WTF.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1148 ]

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