fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1293 ]

[ SECRET POST #1293 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1293 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 383 secrets from Secret Submission Post #185.
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I'd argue that systematic, subtle racism is far more of a threat than the KKK. Mainstream society has finally realized that blatant shit like that isn't generally acceptable. It's all of the systematic, day-to-day stuff that's the problem.

Which isn't to say the KKK isn't a problem, of course. Why not deal with both?

Yeah, but the guilt everyone into agreement is not a good solution either. This whole "You're white, be ashamed" and the "You're privileged, your argument is invalid" thing people on LJ and associated sites have going on is pretty bad too. And most people don't seem to realize it.

Instead of trying to promote equality it's all about guilt.

It's like if I started blaming teenage german kids for killing my grandparents during WWII.

To be frank, it's not about making white people feel good about the fact they benefit from systematic racism. How does one say, "Oh, yes, by the way, you're a beneficiary of this institutional racism" without pissing someone off? Yeah, people aren't personally responsible for a lot of the horrible crap that happened years ago, but white people still benefit from and live in this system that came about as a result of those actions. I just want people to be aware of that and realize that it's not always about them.

"Oh, yes, by the way, you're a beneficiary of this institutional racism"
- Well that may piss someone off. I do think that is a very good way of putting it.

There's a good chance they're benefiting from systematic racism too. I mean, if you're in the US and not Native American, congrats. The soil you're standing on right now used to belong to white assholes who systematically exterminated its red devil owners, because Columbus realized there was a whole series of islands across the ocean chock-full of non-whites to enslave. If it wasn't for racism, no USA as we know it.

Not that it makes anything RIGHT, but trying to play "Where would we be today without racism?" is a VERY complicated game. It's shaped the world we live in today so deeply, that reducing it to an individual level cheapens it. It's like invoking Godwin's Law over a bad fanfic review. Yes, lets compare millions dead to a random internet person going "this sux". That doesn't demean a world changing event at all!

But you're not doing that (not you you since I don't know who you are). You're guilting individual people who can't do anything about the way they were born the same way anyone else can't instead of fighting society and its twisted values.

There are intelligent people who don't do this and actually contribute to the discussion and the fight against insitutionalized racism, but then there are people who seem to live for "calling white people out on their privilege". And they also seem to assume that everyone either come from the USA or that race issue is the same everywhere in the world. And they ignore ethnicity of white people which is just another nail to the coffin of fail they build for themselves.

this. just THIS.

-yet another poc, tyvm

I can agree with that. Especially that last bit about the USA. I mean, I live here, so that's what I'm drawing on, but assuming the whole world is like the USA is pretty damn fail.

Anon, you are brilliant.

You're guilting individual people who can't do anything about the way they were born the same way anyone else can't instead of fighting society and its twisted values.

What, exactly, do you think constitutes 'guilting'? There are a lot of posts with a lot of different content, a great deal of which doens't even mention individual people. Which of these are inexcusably wrong?

And they also seem to assume that everyone either come from the USA or that race issue is the same everywhere in the world.

This is a tricky issue. A high percentage of people in fandom come from the US, Canada, and the UK, where these sort of conversations are highly relevant. The same is true for the source material, virtually all of which comes from these three countries. That doesn't mean we shouldn't respect other cultures, or try to understand how their perceptions of racism might differ from ours. But if you're going to be in a US-based fandom, you probably should at least try and learn about US racial issues.

But if you're going to be in a US-based fandom, you probably should at least try and learn about US racial issues.

You didn't get that anon, anon. They're outraged about people who seem to think that all racism issues are the same as in the USA not the other way around.

I do get it, and I can understand how that would be frustrating. If they're talking about someone from the US refusing to believe that racism could be different in their home country, that's absolutely egotistic and disrespectful. But I've also seen a lot of people complain that the discussions themselves are US-centric. My point is that's a natural consequence of being in a fandom where both the canon and the majority of people are from the US. Saying that, "that's not how it is in my country, so obviously you're wrong," is stupid no matter who does it, and I have seen it from both sides.

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:43 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:52 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 23:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 23:10 (UTC) - Expand

The same is true for the source material, virtually all of which comes from these three countries.

Huh?

News to me.

(Is this the same kind of thing that equates the word "comics" with "superhero comics published and owned by big North American corporations"?)

Very nicely said.

At this point any dissent whatsoever has become impossible because of the "privilege" claim. You can either agree that your fic is PROBLEMATIC and kowtow and apologize profusely, or you can.... ... well, no, that's about it.

Other people are not perfect arbiters about what is problematic and what isn't. But a dialogue is impossible because (1) the privileged have no right to speak, (2) PoC have no responsibility to educate, and (3) those PoC who DO express dissenting thoughts don't speak for their race as a whole and so are discounted. So the option is to shut the fuck up, basically.

I'm starting to think that the word "problematic" needs to DIAF.

fucking seconded.

Yes. Actually, "problematic" is a great word, it just seems like a lot of people don't know what the fuck it means. Actually, that's a huge problem with racefail debates, period. You get a bunch of people throwing lingo around because they think it makes them sound SMART and they have no clue what the fuck they are talking about.

I thought the problem with racefail debates was you have a bunch of white people who get all up in arms at the slightest hint of a racist thought, ignoring the context it was intended and deciding to start a crusade because it relieves them of their "White Man's Burden" for a few seconds and they can give them a pat on the back for "defending poc."

I really have no problem with particular races or cultures pointing out issues they might have with someone's portrayal. Really, I wish more would share their views, but they have this attitude from past discrimination that "You won't listen, why do I owe you anything?" so only the middle class white people say anything. It's not about giving us (white folk) anything, it's about poc finally having a platform to express their opinions. Yes, we would benefit if we actually listened, but then everyone would. That's the nature of diplomacy. Whatever happened to it, IDK.

Re: different anon

thickets.livejournal.com - 2010-07-20 01:00 (UTC) - Expand

It's not bad to say "You benefit from this and that". It's bad to say "You benefit from this and that and you should feel ashamed for that even though you have no control over it" which is what most so-called experts on LJ do.

I don't think they ought to be shamed for it. Aware of it? Most certainly.

But the problem is that shaming is what happens, in great mob quantities.

It's the newest social thing on lj. Grab a latte, bring up a Snow Patrol playlist, and head over to metafandom for the latest public tarring-and-feathering of a grossly privileged writer. Quick, you don't want to miss their fifth apology (which will be deemed unacceptable and summarily dismissed)! Get your seats now!

Re: same different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:29 (UTC) - Expand

Re: same different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:36 (UTC) - Expand

Re: same different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-19 02:39 (UTC) - Expand

Re: same different anon

(Anonymous) - 2010-07-18 22:33 (UTC) - Expand

Me: "So anyway, racism is pretty bad."
You: "But you are a beneficiary of institutionalized racism!"

The only directions I've ever managed to go from here without getting flamed are as follows:

1. Drop the thread and never look back.

2. Immediately express how ashamed I am and say nothing else, then drop the thread and never look back.

(AND I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS FUCKING OPPRESSION GOD DAMN)

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