[ SECRET POST #1351 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1351 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:



Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 111 secrets from Secret Submission Post #193.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - unreadable ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I get where you're coming from. I've seen some art in holiday exchanges that was frankly awful and while I appreciate that people participate at all, some of this stuff either has no effort put into it or is just flat-out awful. I kinda get embarrassment squicked when people make fake gushing comments about art so bad that I wouldn't put it on my fridge if my kindergartner drew it.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

art so bad that I wouldn't put it on my fridge if my kindergartner drew it.

The only comfort here is knowing that line was hyperbole.

If it wasn't, please never have children you can then scar for life.

[(Anonymous)]

My parents wouldn't hang my grade school art.

Didn't scar me at all.

I sell my stuff now, and they hang it proudly.

It was shit then.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Lucky you then, because your parents frankly sound like dicks and a lot of other kids would have been deeply hurt by that.

Offering age-appropriate criticism is not the same thing as telling a kid they're a failure for not producing work of age-IN-appropriate skill. Refusing to demonstrate any appreciation for your child's efforts definitely falls into the latter category.

[(Anonymous)]

Not hanging my art != telling me I was a failure. Why did you make that equation?

Why did you also assume they didn't demonstrate *any* appreciation?

Way to jump to conclusions about some pretty nice people, there.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Not hanging my art != telling me I was a failure. Why did you make that equation?

Hey, YOU'RE the one who suggested they didn't hang it because they didn't consider it good enough to display or admire. I'd consider that a pretty clear statement of failure to a little kid.

Way to jump to conclusions about some pretty nice people, there.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, if you read my brief post, you'll see I suggest nothing of the sort. I never said they said I was a failure--because they didn't. I didn't say they didn't appreciate me. Because they did. I said they didn't hang my art. They didn't. I said my art was shit. It was. Those are all the *facts* that I stated. The rest is you making up stuff for reasons I don't get.

Maybe you were one of those kids that needed trophies for participation. I didn't grow up in the US. We got prizes for achievement, and encouragement towards that goal. Different mindset, not nasty or abusive in the least.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

If there is no cultural expectation that parents hang art where you are, then isn't your claim to be unbothered by your parent's refusal to do so utterly fucking irrelevant? Why would you not have mentioned that in your FIRST reply? Context much?

Anyway, I'm inclined to doubt you, based on your first comment. If there is no such cultural expectation, then why did you mention it as a watermark of youthful artistic success?

Maybe you were one of those kids that needed trophies for participation.

LOL, nice try, but no. North American schools aren't actually as one-note as that. They have many other ways of fucking kids up, too.

But this isn't about "trophies for participation." I happen to agree that handing out gold stars to everyone for participation alone is a disaster in the long run, but that's neither here nor there. Telling a kid who is only five years old that their art isn't good enough by your standards - which is EXACTLY what you said you'd do in your first comment - is developmentally inappropriate. End of.

Before you have kids then, at least pick up a parenting book or twice. Christ.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

*eyerolls* Or two, rather. It's still early.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm inclined to doubt you, based on your first comment

You're doubting someone else, because that wasn't me. Me being the person whose art wasn't hung. But A+ for effort.

So, no, my parents never said that my art wasn't good enough by their standards. They just never hung it on their fridge. That's all. The causality is all on you.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

...Does how the internet work fucking escape you or something?

If you're a different anon, say so. Of course I'm going to assume you're the first one, UNLESS YOU SAY SO like someone who isn't a total dumbshit and knows I otherwise have NO WAY OF KNOWING you're someone else.

That's on YOU.

Also, your comments are now completely and utterly pointless and irrelevant to what I said to SOMEONE ELSE. Thanks for wasting my time and yours, you mindless brat.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, the fake gushing comments in the Yuletart comm were really off-putting, too.

[alchemy]

As I already mentioned below, I think you may be missing the point. I am not as good at commenting to Yuletart posts as some others, but I can sincerely say that none of my comments were fake. This may have to do with a difference in how we each perceive "art." Personally, I find the act of creating something to be wonderful, and I'm always so glad to see someone else engaging in it. It makes me happy, regardless of how polished a piece is. Furthermore, there's always something nice to say about artwork, and while con-crit has its place, Yuletart isn't it. I see nothing wrong with simply being nice to each other in fandom for once. I say this as someone who has been involved in fandom art activities and running fanart fests for years.

Art isn't fic: Praising it doesn't mean the artist simply plateaus and never gets better. You don't get stuck in bad practices simply because someone was nice about your work. Praising art means the artist is encouraged to create more, the experience of which helps them become more skilled.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I see nothing wrong with being nice, but I do think there's something wrong with 'enabling' people who are simply not yet at a level where they can create something which another person would be genuinely glad to receive as a gift. That's a convoluted sentence, but I hope you get what I mean. I'm not saying that people should leave nasty comments on gift art. But I don't think that leaving praise where praise is undeserved is a good thing.

I don't really get your "art isn't fic" point. Praising art might easily mean that the artist gets self-satisfied and doesn't feel a need to improve.

I know that a fest is the wrong place for negativity, which is partly why I felt the need to make this secret. And it would pretty bad to go around 'calling out' shoddy fest artists. But I think they are a problem, and it makes me sad that there are people who would are either unable to recognise how lacking their work is - because that degree of blindness to one's faults is surely a bad thing - or who know perfectly well that they can't produce something which their recipient would genuinely like.

Thanks a lot for engaging in discussion on this thread, though.

[alchemy]

No problem, I don't mind debating it at all, and I DO appreciate that you've been civil, even in the secret.

I do think I understand what you mean about enabling, but my point is that the idea of enabling is misapplied. First of all, this is supposed to be a fun fandom thing on the internet, of all places, and I am going to instinctively balk at anything to do with it being taken so seriously, so I have to put that out there for the record. Secondly, speaking as an artist who has gotten praise on a lot of truly terrible work over the years, I can't fathom the idea of it making an artist blind. Art is such an inherently visual medium; you can't escape it. All around us we see examples of people who are better than us and who we would like to emulate, whether it be an awesome fanartist or Monet. It's so difficult to be blind to where you don't measure up, you know? I've never in my life known an artist who wasn't constantly trying to improve. Third, what people like and don't like is as subjective as what qualifies as "good" art. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've had plenty of people legitimately gush over my art and I was thinking they must have really low standards. XD Yet, something about it spoke to them, so who am I to say that's not valid?

OP

[(Anonymous)]

I think the fun of such a fest might be compromised, however, if recipients feel hurt when they put in a lot of effort and receive something which seems shoddy.

I'd like to share your view on artists, but from my own observations (not of friends or acquaintances, simply of artists on the internet and what they say about their own work), there are a lot of artists who have an inflated opinion of their own skill, or who genuinely can't see how poor their work is.

I was like the latter when I was much younger and had only just discovered the shiny awesomeness of the internet - I was keen to share my work, even if it was unpolished or simply poor, because at that time it looked perfectly decent to me. (Didn't join any fests, though.) To me, now, that youthful eagerness seems a bit conceited, and my standards are higher (and hence more realistic).

That's kind of beside the point, though. I agree that art is a very subjective thing. But as another anon said on this thread, "there's a big difference between "this isn't my style," which is okay, and "this person cannot draw for beans"."

Anyway, as I said below - probably bowing out now, but thanks for this discussion.

[alchemy]

That's a good point, about youthful arrogance. I certainly had my share of it, too (What do you mean, people aren't supposed to have giraffe necks? :P). I was always secretly yearning to be better, though, but I suppose it isn't fair to assume everyone is that way (Although it really is true that all the artists I know personally are).

I think that overall, the whole fest environment is a really slippery slope. You want to be welcoming and for people to have fun, but I also agree that it's perfectly valid to be disappointed if your gift art isn't as nice as you'd like. As a person running a fest, you kind of get stuck between a rock and a hard place, and personally, I choose to err on the side of welcoming for many of the reasons I already explained (and more). But I did want to let you know that I get where you're coming from even if we don't entirely agree about it. I do also fully realize you're not attacking the fest but rather entreating artists to be more aware, and again, I appreciate you being so civil about the whole thing.