[ SECRET POST #1387 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1387 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 051 secrets from Secret Submission Post #198.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[harukami]

As a lesbian, when I was in high school, I was accused of "flaunting it" when I held my girlfriend's hand in the hallways as we walked between classes. This was from the same individuals who would make out with their boyfriends/girlfriends in the hallway with their hands down their pants.

"Flaunting it" doesn't exist except from an attitude of shame culture. Even the phrase "If you've got it, flaunt it" has the counter-point of "If you don't got it, hide it" -- ie if you're not societally perfectly gorgeous, hide your body because nobody wants to see that shit, etc.

Nobody says that school dances are flaunting heterosexuality. Nobody says male-female pairs making out in public are flaunting heterosexuality. Nobody says that dorm parties are flaunting heterosexuality. That is because they are "normative". These are just normal parts of male-female interaction in society -- but equal, or lesser things? Those are seen as flaunting it when it's done by same-sex pairs. We are told by this imbalanced comparison that we DO have something to be ashamed of, that we SHOULD hide it. Gay teens, as you probably know, have a vastly higher suicide rate. Gay people are told, constantly, by the media, by society around them, that their sexuality needs to be shown less than heterosexuality because it is shameful and because it is dangerous to show it. The attitude of the public towards showing any sign of sexual interest in your own gender -- including holding hands, yes, or a light kiss on the cheek, or anything else that barely qualifies as sexual in a heterosexual pair -- is to hide it and that the other pair should be ashamed, not 'flaunt' it. Matching the public sexuality of heterosexual pairs is seen as going to absurd lengths TO flaunt it, despite the fact that in a perfect world this would, also, be seen as normative interaction.

Pride events, when enacted by the disempowered minority (rather than the empowered majority) are a way of countering that statement publicly. It is a yearly "we're here and we're queer", yes, which is not claiming supremecy (as you compare it to "white power") but announcing a large enough presence to classify not as the small minority who can be erased. To gay people who feel completely alone and alienated by the heteronormative world around them -- and I was never one of them, even when I got bullied for holding my girlfriend's hand -- the fact that gay pride events exist is a symbol that they aren't alone and that since they're not alone -- and therefore 'abnormal' -- they might not have to feel ashamed of what they are despite the vast majority of the world around them telling them connotatively that they should. Constantly.

It also serves a purpose for those who are gay and don't feel alone or alienated -- because even then, we don't feel normative. I went to gay pride this year for the first time in my life and felt, yes, normative. I felt like I could hold my girlfriend's hand, kiss her cheek, kiss her on the lips, and not worry that someone else would view me as flaunting it, ie, that they would treat me like I was doing something I should be ashamed of. People were laughing, dancing, singing, drinking, eating, having a party where everyone there was, in some way, like everyone else there and had similar expectations of what behavior was 'okay'. There were no expectations of shame for having interest in the same sex. It was a wonderful, eye-opening experience for me -- and I'm a person who's acknowledged I'm gay for over half my life now, who considers that just a facet of my life, and who, generally, doesn't make a "fuss" about it.

If you think there's no room for gay pride, I find that very unfortunate.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

This, exactly.

And because of all this, actual "flaunting" (gay camp, intentionally provocative dress or behavior at Pride, etc.) makes sense. It's "I will not only not be 'demure' (because the game is rigged from go), I will be your worst nightmare and laugh in your fucking face."

No, not everyone has to like that, but my not at all humble opinion is that shock and fretting upset serve pearl-clutching heterosexual people right.

[neonstilettos.livejournal.com]

Randomly swooping in to say that your comment wins, and wins hard.

[(Anonymous)]

No, no, you're all missing the point.

I'm not saying people do flaunt it, or that they shouldn't. I'm saying using the word "pride" practically invites accusations of flaunting because that is what the connotations of the word "pride" are.

This is about the word "pride," not anybody's actions.

[harukami]

...But yes, that is the point.

Because if you're constantly told, through words or actions, that you should be ashamed, you need to counterbalance it WITH pride.

If I get accused of "flaunting it" for having the gumption to hold a girl's hand -- in other words, not being afraid or ashamed enough not to -- they're assuming pride anyway.

So let's announce that pride for the sake of the people who are being forced to feel ashamed.

[(Anonymous)]

This is just where our opinions irrevocably differ, I guess. I don't feel that saying and acting as though I am not ashamed (because I'm not) is "pride," only confidence. And I feel that only confidence is necessary to combat shame.

I would be fine with being confident for the sake of people who are being forced to feel ashamed. Being proud of myself for being something that I was born into? Not my thing.

[harukami]

Since you're having trouble with the semantics of the term:

I think you are arguing a different dictionary definition of pride than I am. You're arguing the "sin" of pride -- an overblown sense of self-importance or ego.

I'm arguing a different pride, which is the one intended by pride groups:
* a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
* a feeling of honour and self-respect; a sense of personal worth

It is the "pride" which is counter to "shame", not the "pride" which is counter to "humility".

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

This, thank you.

[(Anonymous)]

The point I'm arguing is that I am not the only one who has problems with the semantics of the term. A large majority of the population has problems with the semantics of the term. When people hear "gay pride," they think "those gays flaunting themselves and thinking they're special." This is what a lot of people think when they see it, my family and friends' families included. My original point, way back before all this, was that the wording was unfortunate, and I didn't like it, because of this fact.

[harukami]

But what is the opposite of "shame", then, that pride groups could use instead? Shameless means something very different, and unashamed is a middleground term rather than representing events or social actions that represent the opposite of shame.


Also, the thing is, why really should we stop having a sense of pride in our identity and copping to it as such because other people would put us down for it? Other people would put us down for having this interest at all; that doesn't mean we should hide it.

I don't think the wording is unfortunate at all.


Out of curiosity, do you have the same problem with phrasing like "Proud to be an American" (or any other nationality; I'm Canadian but idk how "Proud to be Canadian" is seen outside Canada *g*) or anything like that? Because it's a similar "pride". People can misread that if they are anti-American to begin with but I think, generally, we know it means respectively "I'm happy to see my country's achievements and ideologies and feel that I can fit in with them".


We are working against the assumed normative. We are speaking to the people who need a sense of pride. So those are the terms used.

I understand that you don't like them, but I hope I've helped explain why it is a term that people do use and stick to and will uphold for gay pride, disability pride, etc. Even if you don't agree with me, I hope this helps explain why it was chosen because when you began to discuss this in this thread, it seemed like you believed that "flaunting themselves and thinking they're special" WAS a reason to use terms like that.

[(Anonymous)]

Confidence is one I suggested earlier in the thread. It has all the good meanings of "pride" without all the negative "overconfident" connotations.

Yes, I have the same problem with nationpride, racepride, every ___pride.

I don't believe I ever mentioned agreeing that people were flaunting themselves (in fact I did specifically acknowledge that for most people, pride was about overcoming adversity in a comment to fierceawakening). I was only acknowledging that it sounded like "flaunting" to other people and that other people thought so, but everyone apparently assumed I did agree. /shrug

[(Anonymous)]

Rephrased: no, I don't think most ___priders are flaunting themselves. I do think that the word pride makes it sound so, however, and do not like the term. I see where people who think that pride=flaunting might get that idea, because of the words used.

Is that clearer?

[harukami]

I understood what you were saying; to rephrase what I said, since you were responding as if that was the only meaning of the term, it sounded as if you believed that the intention of using that term was to bring up that connotation, not "opposite of shame".

That all aside, I'm pretty sure when push comes to shove anyone who'd think we're flaunting it will do so regardless of terminology used because, well, they think we're flaunting it for showing any signs of our existence anyway usually! And so it's more important to establish the pride elements for those who might need it in their lives than to hide it for the sake of people who might think badly of it.

Moving on, though; I think we've gone about as far with this as it's useful to go.

[(Anonymous)]

I did not believe that was the intention, but I do believe that it is a sad side-effect of that word choice. I don't think even you could deny that this is at least true to some degree.

Yep; I'm never going to like pride because of what it connotates to me and those around me, and you're never going to dislike it because of what it connotates to you and those around you. Nice talk, though.

[harukami]

You're right; I think some people might view it that way. I just also think the people who would take the word that way are also already biased enough that we could call it "gay happy fun time party" or "disability fuck this shit let's celebrate" and they'd still find some way to imply we're making ourselves sospecial and should tone it down. *wg* So the happy side-effects of the word outweigh the negative imho.

Yeah, nice talk.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think so... some of the people I know who do take it that way are gay themselves, and it's offputting to them, which I'm sure is not the intention. But the people I know aren't the people you know, etc etc.