fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1387 ]

[ SECRET POST #1387 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1387 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Flaunting = intentionally shoving it into people's faces and drawing attention to it, which is different from having it be there and noticed without the person doing anything. You know the phrase, "if you've got it, flaunt it?" Obviously, "having it" and "flaunting it" are different ideas.

Personally, and I do say this as a gay person, I find people being "proud to be gay" just as offputting as people who are "proud to be white." You were born a certain way, I was born a certain way, or maybe with disabilities, became some way... I understand that "disability pride" often refers to being proud of overcoming the obstacles presented by the disability (which is perfectly fine and admirable), but it is still an extremely bad way to phrase it. It sounds like you're proud that this unavoidable thing happened to be part of your life, instead of proud of persevering.

But I'm not proud of "persevering," and I think the whole "persevering" thing is something that people without disabilities make up so they can make themselves feel better about us. Yeah, I've faced challenges and I'm proud I've overcome them, but I reject the idea that my whole life narrative is about "perseverance," like I exist to be nothing more than an "inspiring" Reader's Digest article rather than a person.

And I am proud to be myself, in all ways. I see no reason to see the way I am as inherently unfortunate. Like all things, it has its good parts and its bad parts.

The perseverance applies to gay people as well. It would be an utter lie to say either group, gay people or disabled people, do not have it harder than straight or able people.

What I'm trying to say is, are you proud to be disabled? I seriously doubt that's the case, with anyone. But that's what the phrase "disability pride" sounds like, when not explained, and when explained, ends up meaning completely different things to different people.

It's the "____ pride" phrase I hate more than anything else. I'm not proud of being gay. I'm gay and I'm okay with this. I'm not proud of being a racial minority. I'm not white and I'm okay with that too. Being proud of it would be taking it a step too far in my opinion... but that's what "____ pride" sounds like it is.

I don't quite know how to answer you. If the question is something like "If you could choose, would you prefer to have a disability or not?" I don't even know how to answer that at all -- not having a disability would make me a completely different person who would have a totally different path in life, so I'd literally be someone else. And I really have no way of knowing whether being me is superior to being some hypothetical other person.

If it's something like "are you proud to be yourself, including traits about yourself that some people find objectionable or upsetting like disability and bisexuality?" then the answer is "yes," and that's why the phrase doesn't bother me. People try to tell me (or to imply) that being queer or having a disability is bad and I hold my head up and say I'm proud to be me and proud to be a member of communities that include others like me, who also refuse to be ashamed.

That's really all I can say about it.

What I'm arguing, though, is that "pride" and "not being ashamed" are completely separate ideas.

"a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2.
the state or feeling of being proud.
3.
a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4.
pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
5.
something that causes a person or persons to be proud"

Et cetera.

Pride basically means that you are actively happy about that trait and may be patting yourself on the back for this trait. Meanwhile,

"con·fi·dence

/ˈkɒnfɪdəns/ Show Spelled[kon-fi-duhns] Show IPA
–noun
1.
full trust; belief in the powers, trustworthiness, or reliability of a person or thing: We have every confidence in their ability to succeed.
2.
belief in oneself and one's powers or abilities; self-confidence; self-reliance; assurance: His lack of confidence defeated him.
3.
certitude; assurance: He described the situation with such confidence that the audience believed him completely. "

I think that fits a lot better.

God, I hate not being able to edit anon.

For example...

Say I listen to a horrible pop band and love them. Just because I don't let it get to me when other people tell me how shitty they are doesn't mean I'm proud to listen to them, it just means I'm okay with liking them and not letting people get to me.

Adding: "proud to be yourself" is very cool and I am all for this. But why specific prides? Why gay pride, why disability pride, why race prides, as if these individual pieces are all that "you" are? I'm proud to be me, but this doesn't mean that I'm proud of every individual part or trait that makes me, me.

Why am I okay with singling those traits out and specifically identifying with them? Well, personally, because those are things that people in the larger society claim make you inferior, so saying I'm proud to have those traits is saying they don't.

thissss. I always catch flak from my uber-conservative relatives when I try to defend pride parades or gay and lesbian pride month to them, because they have this idea of "OH YOU CAN BE GAY JUST DON'T SHOVE IT IN MY FACE". But straight people "flaunt" (ugh that word) their heterosexuality constantly without even realizing it, because they have that privilege. to me, the idea of "pride" when it comes to minorities is what you said - the idea of not being ashamed because there's no reason to be.

Yep. Like, I came out the other day to someone about my relationship with my gf. This was someone who I strongly suspected already knew and was OK with it, but I wanted to be open about it around him, so I felt I had to say right out what was going on and mention I'd be talking about it openly. He said he knew and was OK with it, but at the same time he was oddly weirded out by the fact that I'd come out and said it, apparently thinking that the ladylike or demure or whatever the fuck thing to do was let it be known without "calling attention" to it. But "calling attention" in this case was, y'know, "Oh hi guys, this is my girlfriend So-and-so."

For that reason I really don't give a fuck if people are campy all over the place. (Well, that and I think it's damn cool. Some people are loud. It's fun. Deal with it.) Because no matter what the hell you do you're gonna be too loud for some people. If the dial is "not okay" when it's at 2, why the hell not crank it to 11?

If the dial is "not okay" when it's at 2, why the hell not crank it to 11?

This; thank you.

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(Anonymous) - 2010-10-22 03:44 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2010-10-22 04:02 (UTC) - Expand

That's not pride. Pride is just being proud of something. You can be proud of something and not shove it in people's faces. You can even bring something to the attention of the general public without shoving it in people's faces.

I'm not saying that's what ___prides are about. I'm saying that's what they make themselves sound like they're about, by using the word "pride."

I'm not proud of being gay. I'm not ashamed of being gay. I just am. And this is okay. Being proud of it seems ridiculous to me, because it isn't as if I had a choice in the matter to begin with, and it certainly wasn't something I achieved or earned.

I think of it more along the lines of being proud of who you are. That's a part of it. I'm proud of my brown hair--granted no one rallies about brown hair, but I'd probably go to a photo shoot or something for it.

I'm proud of who I am, sure. I'm proud of being (name). Being gay happens to be a part of it, but I'm not specifically proud of being gay. Because, as I said, that was something bestowed upon me that I had nothing to do with, like my race.

Also, being "proud of having brown hair" is different from "being proud of the nice way your brown hair looks." From your mention of the photoshoot, you're probably the latter, not the former.

No actually, the former. It's just an example of something that isn't really important overall but I'd be up for it.

As a lesbian, when I was in high school, I was accused of "flaunting it" when I held my girlfriend's hand in the hallways as we walked between classes. This was from the same individuals who would make out with their boyfriends/girlfriends in the hallway with their hands down their pants.

"Flaunting it" doesn't exist except from an attitude of shame culture. Even the phrase "If you've got it, flaunt it" has the counter-point of "If you don't got it, hide it" -- ie if you're not societally perfectly gorgeous, hide your body because nobody wants to see that shit, etc.

Nobody says that school dances are flaunting heterosexuality. Nobody says male-female pairs making out in public are flaunting heterosexuality. Nobody says that dorm parties are flaunting heterosexuality. That is because they are "normative". These are just normal parts of male-female interaction in society -- but equal, or lesser things? Those are seen as flaunting it when it's done by same-sex pairs. We are told by this imbalanced comparison that we DO have something to be ashamed of, that we SHOULD hide it. Gay teens, as you probably know, have a vastly higher suicide rate. Gay people are told, constantly, by the media, by society around them, that their sexuality needs to be shown less than heterosexuality because it is shameful and because it is dangerous to show it. The attitude of the public towards showing any sign of sexual interest in your own gender -- including holding hands, yes, or a light kiss on the cheek, or anything else that barely qualifies as sexual in a heterosexual pair -- is to hide it and that the other pair should be ashamed, not 'flaunt' it. Matching the public sexuality of heterosexual pairs is seen as going to absurd lengths TO flaunt it, despite the fact that in a perfect world this would, also, be seen as normative interaction.

Pride events, when enacted by the disempowered minority (rather than the empowered majority) are a way of countering that statement publicly. It is a yearly "we're here and we're queer", yes, which is not claiming supremecy (as you compare it to "white power") but announcing a large enough presence to classify not as the small minority who can be erased. To gay people who feel completely alone and alienated by the heteronormative world around them -- and I was never one of them, even when I got bullied for holding my girlfriend's hand -- the fact that gay pride events exist is a symbol that they aren't alone and that since they're not alone -- and therefore 'abnormal' -- they might not have to feel ashamed of what they are despite the vast majority of the world around them telling them connotatively that they should. Constantly.

It also serves a purpose for those who are gay and don't feel alone or alienated -- because even then, we don't feel normative. I went to gay pride this year for the first time in my life and felt, yes, normative. I felt like I could hold my girlfriend's hand, kiss her cheek, kiss her on the lips, and not worry that someone else would view me as flaunting it, ie, that they would treat me like I was doing something I should be ashamed of. People were laughing, dancing, singing, drinking, eating, having a party where everyone there was, in some way, like everyone else there and had similar expectations of what behavior was 'okay'. There were no expectations of shame for having interest in the same sex. It was a wonderful, eye-opening experience for me -- and I'm a person who's acknowledged I'm gay for over half my life now, who considers that just a facet of my life, and who, generally, doesn't make a "fuss" about it.

If you think there's no room for gay pride, I find that very unfortunate.

This, exactly.

And because of all this, actual "flaunting" (gay camp, intentionally provocative dress or behavior at Pride, etc.) makes sense. It's "I will not only not be 'demure' (because the game is rigged from go), I will be your worst nightmare and laugh in your fucking face."

No, not everyone has to like that, but my not at all humble opinion is that shock and fretting upset serve pearl-clutching heterosexual people right.

Randomly swooping in to say that your comment wins, and wins hard.

No, no, you're all missing the point.

I'm not saying people do flaunt it, or that they shouldn't. I'm saying using the word "pride" practically invites accusations of flaunting because that is what the connotations of the word "pride" are.

This is about the word "pride," not anybody's actions.

...But yes, that is the point.

Because if you're constantly told, through words or actions, that you should be ashamed, you need to counterbalance it WITH pride.

If I get accused of "flaunting it" for having the gumption to hold a girl's hand -- in other words, not being afraid or ashamed enough not to -- they're assuming pride anyway.

So let's announce that pride for the sake of the people who are being forced to feel ashamed.

This is just where our opinions irrevocably differ, I guess. I don't feel that saying and acting as though I am not ashamed (because I'm not) is "pride," only confidence. And I feel that only confidence is necessary to combat shame.

I would be fine with being confident for the sake of people who are being forced to feel ashamed. Being proud of myself for being something that I was born into? Not my thing.

Since you're having trouble with the semantics of the term:

I think you are arguing a different dictionary definition of pride than I am. You're arguing the "sin" of pride -- an overblown sense of self-importance or ego.

I'm arguing a different pride, which is the one intended by pride groups:
* a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
* a feeling of honour and self-respect; a sense of personal worth

It is the "pride" which is counter to "shame", not the "pride" which is counter to "humility".

This, thank you.

The point I'm arguing is that I am not the only one who has problems with the semantics of the term. A large majority of the population has problems with the semantics of the term. When people hear "gay pride," they think "those gays flaunting themselves and thinking they're special." This is what a lot of people think when they see it, my family and friends' families included. My original point, way back before all this, was that the wording was unfortunate, and I didn't like it, because of this fact.