[ SECRET POST #1482 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1482 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Sorry, fixed the date on the subs post. It should have read "first secret post will be January 29th," not the 22nd.

Secrets Left to Post: 14 pages, 332 secrets from Secret Submission Post #212.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 3 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

Actually mushrooms have recently been discovered to be an adequate source of b12, recently read about it in the news. Furthermore, farmed animals are already supplemented with b12 because modern agricultural practices don't allow for the development of b12 on plant matter like it would in the wild. Whether you like it or not, you're already getting a supplement. Why not skip the middleman (or middlecow)?
If you want b12 but are afraid of pills, just drink fortified soy/rice/nut milk and you'll be all set. Even energy drinks have b12 in them, it's everywhere. b12 is only needed in small amounts and stores in the body for years so you don't really even need that much. I personally never take pills and don't think about it much. I just get it when I drink soymilk.
But really, I always found that excuse kind of weird. People who would rather kill an animal no different from our pet cats and dogs, than take a pill now and then. I can stop so much suffering just with one supplement, it's rather empowering really.

And I don't know about pushing. When people spread misinformation about veganism, I correct them. It's not like I run around calling people evil murderers. This isn't about you, this isn't about me, this is about the animals and their suffering. 50 billion animals die every year in the US alone, and often in the most horrible ways you can imagine. It causes untold environmental damage, and accounts for the main causes of death of America. This is hardly a trivial issue on which I will only speak when spoken to.

Ethical meat has its own problems, the main one being that when you don't have to eat meat to survive, there's no such thing as "ethical" meat. It also doesn't take into account how unsustainable and envrionmentally damaging even the most "ethical" meat is. We're talking about individuals with their own lives, their own wants, their own loves and hates.

I used to believe that trying to convince people to eat ethical meat was more effective, but it's easier, cheaper, more ethical, more environmentally friendly, and more human friendly to convince people to become veg. Most people that talk about ethical meat can't afford it anyway, rendering it utterly pointless, because those people that sing its praises are typically only buying it for special occasions, and eating Big Macs the rest of the time.

Btw, not trying to be a jerk about any of this. Just trying to address each of your points.

[attentie.livejournal.com]

I don't think you are a jerk, I just disagree on your notion that killing animals is unethical. And since that is your primairy argument, there is little use in discussing this further. I do not see animals as people or thinking individuals and I see no clash between animals being beatiful/cool/cute and animals being food. Of course animals have feelings. So? Dying is dying, it is over very quickly in the case of slaughter and it's never nice. I am not pretending I am awaiting a pretty death (because there is no such thing), but I would be primairily concerned for the feelings of my loved ones. In the case of slaughter, the other animals won't miss the killed animal and the killed animal isn't around to mourn itself either. The animal dies in any case (or does not even exist because the animals in question are raised to be consumed) and this way I get a more varied meal and more nutritional value.

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

If dying is such a trivial thing to you, I suppose your beloved cat or dog dying wouldn't bother you much. I suppose you dying wouldn't matter to you much either. Except it does, and it does for all living beings. All of them fight for their lives.

In the case of slaughter, it's unfortunately not over quickly. I recommend watching the movie Earthlings to see standard slaughter practices.

Animals actually do miss each other, and they value their own lives. I recommend reading the book "The Pig that Sang to the Moon" for more information on farmed animal behavior, thought, and emotion.

[attentie.livejournal.com]

I guess it is a pretty trivial thing to me. The worst thing about dying, to me, is the grieving and the mourning of those left behind. It's awful to lose a loved one. But I do not think it's awful to die, not to me anyway. The one who dies does not experience the loss because they are simply gone. But again, that is what I believe, and everyone has his/her own beliefs.

Secondly, the other animals are slaughtered not much later so I am guessing there is not much time to grieve.

Thirdly, animals fight for their lives out of instinct and not out of a conscious decision. The instinct to fight for survival is to protect the species, not the individual. The animal kingdom as a whole is more focussed on groups rather than individuals.

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

Your last point is actually misinformed. Animals do fight for their own lives. I recommend studying animal behavior before making huge sweeping assumptions about the whole animal kingdom. Animals have been proven without doubt that they are not just instinct machines, but actually conscious and capable of making thoughtful decisions.

[attentie.livejournal.com]

Now I am intrigued. Since man is primairly distinguished from animals by ability for conscious thought, I am curious as what examples there are for conscious thought in animals? I have watched many animal documentaries and have studied psychology, but I never encountered a decision made by an animal that was not based on instinct or conditioning.

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

There are many good books on the subject. I believe I recommended "The Pig that Sang to the Moon" earlier as farmed animal specific. Alex the parrot has an excellent biography written by his trainer called "Alex and Me" that explained when putting together a scientific thesis about animal behavior not much of the animal's personality shows through. This lends further to the idea that animals are little more than Descartian instinct machines and can...corrupt the interpretation of the data in some ways. I know there are many others but their titles elude me at the moment. I suppose "Alex and Me" would be a great place to start looking at animal behavior and emotion since it is the unspoken other side of the coin of scientific research on animal behavior.

[attentie.livejournal.com]

I would be interested in reading the pig that sang to the moon even though the reviews are inconsistent and its primairy negative point seems to be the lack of scientific facts-reasoning to back his claims up. However, I am not sure how much faith I am willing to place in a parrot biography as that seems hardly scientific to me and also pretty much focussed on one animal.
I believe animals differ in temperament but personality/conscious thought? Keeping in mind their brain capacity and memory/problem solving skills I am dubious about this. I see however that you list anthropomorphism as one of your interests. Thus we have found another point we disagree on.
I think we should agree to disagree. I am always interested in new material but the reviews and summaries point to the fact that these books are not likely to make me change my mind about eating meat or attributing human characteristics to animals. I based my ideas about animals not only on scientific psychological articles but also on documentaries in which you can observe the animals in question which seem to be pretty reliable sources to me.

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, the anthro thing in my interests is because I'm a furry.

But yeah, I realize I can't change your mind, but give the books a shot, I liked them both quite a bit.

Also, remember that bias goes both ways. Everything we know is through the lens of our interpretation. And remember too that every behavior in humans has also been observed in other animals to one degree or another.

[attentie.livejournal.com]

Lol, ah ok :) Sorry for the late reply, I went to sleep after my last comment. I think I will give the first one a try and then perhaps the second one if I like the first one.

Even though our points of view will continue to differ, it was interesting chatting with you!

[judo-creature.livejournal.com]

I believe animals differ in temperament but personality/conscious thought?

I would highly suggest introducing yourself to some parrots. I've had at least thirty or more different species in my lifetime, and hands down, if you want an animal with a personality, look to a parrot. Or some other kinds of birds. It's really not just temperament. Even my lovebirds, with their tiny brains, have all sorts of preferences and responses and whims and moods. Bigger parrots can sometimes be on a similar level of intelligence as human infants.

Conscious thought? I really don't think we can ever know. Yeah, obviously animals don't think on the same level we do, but I think we don't give them enough credit sometimes--and in some people's cases, give them too much. The truth is that there is no way to ever know what's going on in an animal's mind; we can read behaviours all we want, determine that they have feelings and desires, but I don't think they have, say, opinions. But that's just as well, because opinions make people assholes.

[attentie.livejournal.com]

If being picky and having mood swings means having a personality, my cat has a LOT of personality! I lol but I see what you mean. It depends on your interpretation of the concept of personality versus the concept of temperament. I like your last sentence btw :)

[judo-creature.livejournal.com]

"Alex and Me" sounds very interesting. Thanks for reccing.

I'd definitely be the first person to agree that it's so, so obvious to anyone who looks at animals for more than half a second and truly tries to see their personalities could tell that they're so much more than instinct machines. I could go on for hours about my lovebirds; I know what kind of music they like, what toys they prefer, how they like to be cuddled, their personalities, their whims, their responses to me and other people, how to deal with them when they're in X or X mood, and so on. I've never had two birds who were alike. I've had a peafowl learn how to play hide-and-seek, and in games of tag, she figured out that instead of just chasing me around the tree, she could switch directions and cut me off.

I can understand people not believing animals have thought on the level humans do, but gosh, look at them playing with toys! Some animal toys cater to natural instincts--such a string for cats--but giving a bird a jingly chain benefits them in no biological way, other than to provide them with something fun to do, in order to stimulate their mind. Kind of like a human infant.

[(Anonymous)]

I once saw a documentary on Alex the Parrot which was absolutely fascinating. His wiki page is a good read if you're bored and like animal psychology.

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

As someone who HAS studied animal behavior, you are way, way off. Pick up a science book, kid.

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

If you read my response to him, you'll see my thoughts on scientific journals and how it shows only one side to things, namely the cold, Descartian, machine side to things.

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

I did read them, I've read most of the comments here. You're only showing one side and calling it the correct one to boot. A good case of pot calling the kettle black.

You can be as vegan as you want to be but my jaw is literally dropping at how it seems you outright refuse or just don't understand basic animal bio/behavior.

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

I understand quite a bit about animal behavior after being in their company all my life and studying from books and journals. Your jaw is dropping because I acknowledge that they don't want to die? Seriously? How much of a stretch is it to say that? There are many sentient and self aware animals out there such as dolphins, elephants, pigs, and great apes. I honestly thought it was common knowledge. Apparently it's not as common as I'd hoped.

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

There are many. Not all. You are using it to make a twisted point that is nonsensical and not valid. But, whatever. This is just a thread of you trying to force your exact ideals on other people, not just to defend a vegan lifestyle.

[(Anonymous)]

I've been following this debate as a lurker, because it's interesting to me--I work in conservation and am a vegetarian (environmental reasons--while I wouldn't call myself an animal activist I am definitely an environmental activist). Out of curiosity, how much have you worked with animals--and how much would you say folks in any animal activism you've been involved with work with animals? I saw "The Cove" (for what that's worth) and have some periphery awareness, but as someone who has worked on farms, fished salmon in Alaska, and killed snakes to feed to endangered birds...I don't really get the impression that many veg*n/ag-focused animal activists have worked closely with animals.

I'm not trying to discredit your arguments, I really am just curious about this. I rarely encounter animal activists as such in my work; lots of veg*ns and people with strong opinions but those opinions are generally welfare focused (i.e. enrichment for captive animals, and opinions about how farm animals should be treated).

Incidentally, Sara Gruen's "Ape House" is an interesting book.

-ka

[cypherwulf.livejournal.com]

Lived on an animal farm for a couple of years, and I've been to a few sanctuaries, and known many companion animals. That's pretty much all my real world experience though. I'd love to work in a sanctuary but they tend to be far out of the way, and I don't drive.

With that, I think I'm done for tonight. I could respond to people well into tomorrow but I'd like to use the rest of my evening for something other than debate XD. It's been fun everyone, keep it real.

[(Anonymous)]

Sounds like solid experience to me; or at the very least, enough to form an opinion that's not totally unfounded.

Peace out.

-ka

[131-di.livejournal.com]

you're comparing a pet that's been in the lives of people for many years to farm stock that we've never encountered. the feelings present would be obviously very different, so the two can't really be compared.