fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1509 ]

[ SECRET POST #1509 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1509 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 376 secrets from Secret Submission Post #216.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I have to agree, to an extent. I think it's good to talk about these issues and point out these -isms where they actually exist, but I rarely see rational discussions, I just see a lot of angry bitching and entitlement and ridiculous misuse of the word "privilege." (Seriously, people, just don't say it. It makes you sound pretentious and dumb most of the time.) And while plenty of times it's valid to point out these types of things in shows/movies/whatever, a lot of the times it's really not, and it really kind of takes away from an important message about equality and responsible messages and all to just go "THAT'S OFFENSIVE" at everything all the time.

(And yeah, "Oriental" is outdated...but she doesn't actually said "Oriental," she says "Orient-made," and there actually is a difference. I still think she's using 'stereotypical' words to make a point--like, 'people will judge you and stereotype you, but fuck them, it doesn't matter what they call you because you know who you are and you should be yourself.' Like, I thought she was using those words defiantly. But, whatever, maybe not.)

I have seen wanky discussions on this, but not on F!S and not on the blogs I've seen, beyond ONTD and a certain LJ comm I'm not sure we can mention. "Privilege" can be a useful word in discussions like this. Has it been misused? Yes, but I don't think that some misuse means that the term should never be used, or one looks dumb or pretentious.

How is "orient-made" any less offensive than "oriental"? Plus, I don't think a white woman has any right reclaiming Asian slurs.

Personally I have definitely seen a lot of wanky discussions here (and at ONTD and its spinoffs and that other comm, because I think we're thinking of the same one--why the hell can't we mention it?!). I think the idea of privilege is certainly useful in some contexts, but around these parts I just see it used absurdly so incredibly often that I feel like it's just better to avoid it, for the most part. I mean, everyone here is privileged. There's just no denying it. So to hear someone pontificating about how this show/movie/comment/whatever is SOOOOO offensive and they have the right to judge just how privilege-y it is--it's just incredibly obnoxious to me. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

It refers to the place more than the person, and as far as I've heard that's less directly offensive, but I do agree with the second part. Just to play devil's advocate I'd say that the song isn't meant to be entirely from her point of view--like, she said it was an anthem, meaning that the "I" in the song isn't necessarily her, it's everyone who's singing it. So it's not "I'm allowed to say these terms; fuck haters," it's more "you're allowed to say them and not let them be used against you by stupid people." That could be reaching, though, and I very much understand why people would find it problematic. (However, I also must add that a LOT of people are just looking for reasons to hate on her because she's popular, and "OMG SHE'S A RACIST" sound a lot more meaningful than "I'm sick of her weird outfits. Whether there's a good point in there or not seems to be kinda secondary. Just sayin'.)

The only wanky BTW discussion I've seen on F!S involved a well established troll. I agree that everyone has song degree of privilege, particularly if one is on F!S and is privileged enough to be on the internet for leisure, but I don't think different sorts of privilege cancel out any forms of oppression, and vice versa.

I think a lot of the people that are just looking to hate her are going more with the Madonna rip-off route, from what I've seen. Plus, a lot of the people angry about this are disappointed fans like myself.

and at ONTD and its spinoffs and that other comm, because I think we're thinking of the same one--why the hell can't we mention it?!
With the PA controversy, a lot of threads mentioning it were frozen so I'm not sure if I should bring it up in this topic. I looked and saw no Gaga wank there, surprisingly, but I'd still rather not take the chance.

and at ONTD and its spinoffs

Well, there's your problem.

This was the thrust of my argument. I HATE this new fandom trend of bitching about EVERYTHING. Creators are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Someone, somewhere, will always harp on about them being '-ist'. We don't see enough of X or Y - but when X or Y appear they are all wrong - too stereotyped, or not close to life enough. Glee, for example - they have Kurt, he's openly gay, but because he's camp, he's the wrong kind of gay. So all the real camp gay men out there are the wrong kind of gay as well? It happened with the Princess and the Frog too. The lead character was black, but people complained that she wasn't 'black enough'. And if they had made her more of a stereotype, people would have complained that she was offensive. Maybe it's so for this song, maybe not, but it seems to me that people are picking on her word choices and making one word misused more important than the whole idea of the song, which is loving yourself no matter what happens or what people say. Some people may be highly offended by the use of chola and orient, but there are equally people of these groups who don't care. I don't know any people who might be described as 'chola descent', but I have Asian friends who really don't find 'orient made' in the least offensive.

So because there are Asian people who don't find "orient made" offensive, the emotions and experiences of those who do should be devalued and invalidated? Someone doesn't find it offensive, fine. Someone finds it offensive and complains publicly about it? Also fine.

If some find it offensive and some don't care at all, I certainly question the actual level of offense in the source material. Why are some people more sensitive to it than others? Are they right to be more offended? Or are they being over-sensitive and jumping at any and all perceived slights? Being offended does not automatically make you right, but a lot of people seem to assume that if it offends one person, anywhere, it should be banned. If nothing in this world was allowed to offend anyone, anywhere, nothing would ever be made.

Nobody's talking about banning anything. I'm saying people have a right to complain about being offended by something. And other people being offended by something you don't care about doesn't mean they're just oversensitive and need to get over it. You don't know their history and their life, and you don't get to decide whether someone's allowed to feel a certain emotion or not.

I'm not claiming to have dominion over what people are allowed to feel. People can complain as much as they like, but by that turn I am also allowed to complain that some people are ridiculously oversensitive these days. One word taken out of context becomes a horrendous, awful slight that they should be shunned for forever. Many people look for excuses to claim racefail, to be an injured party, even to have grounds to sue for their own gain. I don't know anyone's history, but I can sure tell naked greed and profiteering when I see it.

There was a case recently where someone at a public meeting used the word 'jungle drums' in the context of 'hearing it on the grape vine/jungle drums'. A white person in the audience heard it, was not initially offended, stayed for drinks and a chat, and then later decided that they were grossly offended on behalf of black people everywhere and is trying to sue for damanges. People are saying that Gaga is a horrible person, a racist, a bigot, etc., for one word, that nobody can prove was meant to be offensive.

It is a big deal over something small, and while I'm sure there are people out there with life experiences that make the words used genuinely offensive and have every right to feel slighted, I would argue that they are a small number of the complainers, many of whom are jumping on the 'THAT'S X-IST!' bandwagon, desperate to call something racist, or just looking for an acceptable excuse to hate Gaga without having to say 'I don't like her style, I don't like that she's rich, blah blah., and it is these people, who are hangers-on and overzealously 'sticking up for the offended parties' when the offended party didn't ask them to who make me despair.

I don't see any movement to ban or shun Gaga by anyone who didn't already like her. A lot of her fans who don't like those lyrics just want her to respond to the criticisms, and to apologize.

Also, most of the people that are offended by her actions are fans who are disappointed in her, or people who are more neutral on her. A lot of the haters are too busy bashing her on how the song sounds like Madonna xD

Uh yeah hi, I'm asian and I didn't find it offensive. The song was obviously about telling people who are going to stereotype you to fuck off and to love yourself. And a lot of her songs have meanings that can't be taken in literal context. Take Paparazzi for example; Gaga talked about how the song was about people's unhealthy obsession with fame. But if you took the lyrics literally, you would think it was showing fame in a positive light.

There's racism in the media, no denying that. Such as The Last Airbender movie and its whitewashing. But Gaga's song? Yeah, I wasn't offended given the meaning behind the song.

I feel like Glee (which I totally watch) has really exacerbated this problem--it's overhyped and aimed at teens and has a diverse cast, but the writing isn't very good or consistent. As a result of all these things, there's a TON of bitching about what it says and what it should say and the messages it's sending and all this sort of thing--I feel like the show was promoted (and I blame Fox for this) as, like, THIS SHOW IS ALL ABOUT YOU AND CAN ~IDENTIFY WITH ALL YOUR PROBLEMS, KIDS, IT'S SO GROUNDBREAKING and then when it turns out to be sort of shallow or inaccurate or stereotyped, people get way more annoyed than they would with another show. So, yeah, there's kind of no way to win. This is one of many, many reasons I wish this show was on cable and was more TV-MA--it kinda tries to be a satire now sometimes, but it really can't get away with much and just comes off looking cheesy half the time. If they could really Go There and have a super-snarky, super-un-P.C. sense of humor, I think it'd be a lot better and it wouldn't have these ridiculous expectations attached to it. But, whatever.

(The thing that killed me the most about The Princess and the Frog was the way all the critics were going SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN when it was so clearly about what the adults wanted. Like, they changed her name from "Maddie" because it sounded too much like "Mammy." Yeah, because the six-year-olds going to see the movie will immediately think of the stereotypical characters played by Hattie McDaniel and others and will think "well, I guess all black people are subservient; I'm gonna be racist now!" Kids have no idea what "Mammy" means! Kids are far less judgmental and narrow-minded than adults, and yet we're acting like they would have been turned into total racists by seeing a black girl as a maid, as originally planned. It wasn't about not being racist, it was about not seeming racist; what the actual target audience thought was apparently irrelevant. I thought that was so incredibly telling.)

Huh. I admit I didn't follow Princess & the Frog's production, but I thought the reason they changed her name was because people didn't want the first black Disney princess to have a white name. I can see their point, although it does bug me that "Tiana" is kind of anachronistic considering the setting of the movie.

(And yeah, "Oriental" is outdated...but she doesn't actually said "Oriental," she says "Orient-made," and there actually is a difference. I still think she's using 'stereotypical' words to make a point--like, 'people will judge you and stereotype you, but fuck them, it doesn't matter what they call you because you know who you are and you should be yourself.' Like, I thought she was using those words defiantly. But, whatever, maybe not.)

Yeah.... no.

It goes beyond stereotypes and Gaga is in no position to speak about them.

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[ SECRET POST #1509 ]

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