fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1509 ]

[ SECRET POST #1509 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1509 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

__________________________________________________

02.

__________________________________________________

03.

__________________________________________________

04.

__________________________________________________

05.

__________________________________________________

06.

__________________________________________________

07.

__________________________________________________

08.

__________________________________________________

09.

__________________________________________________

10.

__________________________________________________

11.

__________________________________________________

12.

__________________________________________________

13.

__________________________________________________

14.

__________________________________________________

15.

__________________________________________________

16.

__________________________________________________

17.

__________________________________________________

18.

__________________________________________________

19.

__________________________________________________

20.

__________________________________________________

21.

__________________________________________________

22.

__________________________________________________

23.

__________________________________________________

24.

__________________________________________________

25.

__________________________________________________

26.

__________________________________________________

27.

__________________________________________________

28.

__________________________________________________

29.

__________________________________________________

30.

__________________________________________________

31.

__________________________________________________

32.

__________________________________________________

33.

__________________________________________________

34.

__________________________________________________

35.

__________________________________________________

36.

__________________________________________________

37.

__________________________________________________

38.

__________________________________________________

39.

__________________________________________________

40.

__________________________________________________

41.

__________________________________________________

42.

__________________________________________________

43.

__________________________________________________

44.

__________________________________________________

45.

__________________________________________________

46.

__________________________________________________

47.

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 376 secrets from Secret Submission Post #216.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ah, here we go again. More of these self-righteous fandom idiots who are always desperately searching for something new to accuse of 'racefail'. Lady Gaga wrote a song about loving yourself no matter who you are, but because she used 'orient' and 'chola' to make the lines work together she's terrible and evil and deserves to be flogged. As this secret illustrates, using 'chola' isn't necessarily a racist slur (is it a racial slur in the first place? I have to admit, not being from the USA I had to look up what it meant as I hadn't heard it before, and the definition gave no indication of the 'offense' level it has towards people it's directed at), and 'oriental' is a pretty everyday word - 'oriental languages', etc.

Seems like people will do anything to find a new target for this new fandom disease of accusing everything of being '-ist'. Ageist, sexist, ableist, whateverist, on the most flimsy basis. No black people in your material? RACIST! A black character who is good? RACIST, stop stereotyping! A black character that isn't good? SAME THING! Authors and artists can't win nowadays, there is always something people will pick at.

How about you educate yourself more (http://www.racialicious.com/2011/02/08/lady-gaga-brings-cholas-back-to-pop-culture-like-it-or-not/) before mouthing off? (Also, in the US "Oriental" is an offensive, outdated term. Gaga is from the US, so there's her context.)

Don't assume that everyone in the world shares the same cultural knowldge of the US that you do, before you also start mouthing off. As I said below, chola is a new phrase to me, and asking what it means is hardly being rude - and asking the question was inviting someone to teach me. There was no need to be snippy.

The fandom obsession with '-ism' still applies, though I can see now that it perhaps doesn't in this case.

Don't assume that everyone in the world shares the same cultural knowldge of the US that you do

You know what's so great about living in this day and age? The internet! Google! Wikipedia!

Yes, I am eager to spend my life studying the pop culture of America! The whole world should be obsessed with America! We should understand American culture exactly the way that actual Americans do! How dare we not know something and then ask an actual American what its connotations are! We should know already!

No you idiot, if you want to know the connotation of a specific word in a specific song that's all over the internet you can just fucking google it. Nobody asked you to become an American Studies scholar.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-02-19 23:01 (UTC) - Expand

different anon

(Anonymous) - 2011-02-19 23:08 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2011-02-19 23:47 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

i-am-a-rose-4.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 01:30 (UTC) - Expand

Re: different anon

(Anonymous) - 2011-02-20 09:22 (UTC) - Expand

But you're talking about an American artist. If an American went off about something they didn't know about from an artist from Korea or somewhere and someone suggested they look up what it means to a Korean and they threw a shit fit, they would be called stupid. Because it is stupid.

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Try going to South America and saying, "chola."

Assuming it's just a US thing is, in fact, pretty rude.

Chola is offensive enough in the context in which she used it that several latin@ groups specifically complained. It's not a fandom thing.

I see. Perhaps being outside the US I don't see it the same way you guys do, but here the word 'chola' is nonexistant, and honestly both versions of it - the Indian dynasty and the latina gang thing - are entirely new concepts to me and I - perhaps rashly - didn't assume Gaga had either one more prominent in her culture either. Oriental is another inoffensive word here - there are universities that offer study in 'Oriental Languages' and so on. I suppose from this I think that Gaga was trying either to be 'edgy' or, she misjudged the level of offense it would cause. For someone who spoke out so fiercely about Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and against HIV/AIDS and discrimination thereof, I can't think she meant the offense...

She's done stuff like this before. She waved an Irish flag in Belfast, there was outrage, and a couple weeks later she went to Croatia and danced with a Slovenian flag on stage. Her ~edgy~ offensiveness is thoroughly calculated.

Ugh, I hated all of that. I wish she would go back to being fun. I like her talking about gay rights, but not like this, and the flags were just...no.

I have to agree, to an extent. I think it's good to talk about these issues and point out these -isms where they actually exist, but I rarely see rational discussions, I just see a lot of angry bitching and entitlement and ridiculous misuse of the word "privilege." (Seriously, people, just don't say it. It makes you sound pretentious and dumb most of the time.) And while plenty of times it's valid to point out these types of things in shows/movies/whatever, a lot of the times it's really not, and it really kind of takes away from an important message about equality and responsible messages and all to just go "THAT'S OFFENSIVE" at everything all the time.

(And yeah, "Oriental" is outdated...but she doesn't actually said "Oriental," she says "Orient-made," and there actually is a difference. I still think she's using 'stereotypical' words to make a point--like, 'people will judge you and stereotype you, but fuck them, it doesn't matter what they call you because you know who you are and you should be yourself.' Like, I thought she was using those words defiantly. But, whatever, maybe not.)

I have seen wanky discussions on this, but not on F!S and not on the blogs I've seen, beyond ONTD and a certain LJ comm I'm not sure we can mention. "Privilege" can be a useful word in discussions like this. Has it been misused? Yes, but I don't think that some misuse means that the term should never be used, or one looks dumb or pretentious.

How is "orient-made" any less offensive than "oriental"? Plus, I don't think a white woman has any right reclaiming Asian slurs.

Personally I have definitely seen a lot of wanky discussions here (and at ONTD and its spinoffs and that other comm, because I think we're thinking of the same one--why the hell can't we mention it?!). I think the idea of privilege is certainly useful in some contexts, but around these parts I just see it used absurdly so incredibly often that I feel like it's just better to avoid it, for the most part. I mean, everyone here is privileged. There's just no denying it. So to hear someone pontificating about how this show/movie/comment/whatever is SOOOOO offensive and they have the right to judge just how privilege-y it is--it's just incredibly obnoxious to me. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

It refers to the place more than the person, and as far as I've heard that's less directly offensive, but I do agree with the second part. Just to play devil's advocate I'd say that the song isn't meant to be entirely from her point of view--like, she said it was an anthem, meaning that the "I" in the song isn't necessarily her, it's everyone who's singing it. So it's not "I'm allowed to say these terms; fuck haters," it's more "you're allowed to say them and not let them be used against you by stupid people." That could be reaching, though, and I very much understand why people would find it problematic. (However, I also must add that a LOT of people are just looking for reasons to hate on her because she's popular, and "OMG SHE'S A RACIST" sound a lot more meaningful than "I'm sick of her weird outfits. Whether there's a good point in there or not seems to be kinda secondary. Just sayin'.)

The only wanky BTW discussion I've seen on F!S involved a well established troll. I agree that everyone has song degree of privilege, particularly if one is on F!S and is privileged enough to be on the internet for leisure, but I don't think different sorts of privilege cancel out any forms of oppression, and vice versa.

I think a lot of the people that are just looking to hate her are going more with the Madonna rip-off route, from what I've seen. Plus, a lot of the people angry about this are disappointed fans like myself.

and at ONTD and its spinoffs and that other comm, because I think we're thinking of the same one--why the hell can't we mention it?!
With the PA controversy, a lot of threads mentioning it were frozen so I'm not sure if I should bring it up in this topic. I looked and saw no Gaga wank there, surprisingly, but I'd still rather not take the chance.

and at ONTD and its spinoffs

Well, there's your problem.

This was the thrust of my argument. I HATE this new fandom trend of bitching about EVERYTHING. Creators are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Someone, somewhere, will always harp on about them being '-ist'. We don't see enough of X or Y - but when X or Y appear they are all wrong - too stereotyped, or not close to life enough. Glee, for example - they have Kurt, he's openly gay, but because he's camp, he's the wrong kind of gay. So all the real camp gay men out there are the wrong kind of gay as well? It happened with the Princess and the Frog too. The lead character was black, but people complained that she wasn't 'black enough'. And if they had made her more of a stereotype, people would have complained that she was offensive. Maybe it's so for this song, maybe not, but it seems to me that people are picking on her word choices and making one word misused more important than the whole idea of the song, which is loving yourself no matter what happens or what people say. Some people may be highly offended by the use of chola and orient, but there are equally people of these groups who don't care. I don't know any people who might be described as 'chola descent', but I have Asian friends who really don't find 'orient made' in the least offensive.

So because there are Asian people who don't find "orient made" offensive, the emotions and experiences of those who do should be devalued and invalidated? Someone doesn't find it offensive, fine. Someone finds it offensive and complains publicly about it? Also fine.

If some find it offensive and some don't care at all, I certainly question the actual level of offense in the source material. Why are some people more sensitive to it than others? Are they right to be more offended? Or are they being over-sensitive and jumping at any and all perceived slights? Being offended does not automatically make you right, but a lot of people seem to assume that if it offends one person, anywhere, it should be banned. If nothing in this world was allowed to offend anyone, anywhere, nothing would ever be made.

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-02-19 22:51 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

(Anonymous) - 2011-02-19 23:17 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

cherrycoloured.livejournal.com - 2011-02-20 00:30 (UTC) - Expand

Uh yeah hi, I'm asian and I didn't find it offensive. The song was obviously about telling people who are going to stereotype you to fuck off and to love yourself. And a lot of her songs have meanings that can't be taken in literal context. Take Paparazzi for example; Gaga talked about how the song was about people's unhealthy obsession with fame. But if you took the lyrics literally, you would think it was showing fame in a positive light.

There's racism in the media, no denying that. Such as The Last Airbender movie and its whitewashing. But Gaga's song? Yeah, I wasn't offended given the meaning behind the song.

I feel like Glee (which I totally watch) has really exacerbated this problem--it's overhyped and aimed at teens and has a diverse cast, but the writing isn't very good or consistent. As a result of all these things, there's a TON of bitching about what it says and what it should say and the messages it's sending and all this sort of thing--I feel like the show was promoted (and I blame Fox for this) as, like, THIS SHOW IS ALL ABOUT YOU AND CAN ~IDENTIFY WITH ALL YOUR PROBLEMS, KIDS, IT'S SO GROUNDBREAKING and then when it turns out to be sort of shallow or inaccurate or stereotyped, people get way more annoyed than they would with another show. So, yeah, there's kind of no way to win. This is one of many, many reasons I wish this show was on cable and was more TV-MA--it kinda tries to be a satire now sometimes, but it really can't get away with much and just comes off looking cheesy half the time. If they could really Go There and have a super-snarky, super-un-P.C. sense of humor, I think it'd be a lot better and it wouldn't have these ridiculous expectations attached to it. But, whatever.

(The thing that killed me the most about The Princess and the Frog was the way all the critics were going SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN when it was so clearly about what the adults wanted. Like, they changed her name from "Maddie" because it sounded too much like "Mammy." Yeah, because the six-year-olds going to see the movie will immediately think of the stereotypical characters played by Hattie McDaniel and others and will think "well, I guess all black people are subservient; I'm gonna be racist now!" Kids have no idea what "Mammy" means! Kids are far less judgmental and narrow-minded than adults, and yet we're acting like they would have been turned into total racists by seeing a black girl as a maid, as originally planned. It wasn't about not being racist, it was about not seeming racist; what the actual target audience thought was apparently irrelevant. I thought that was so incredibly telling.)

Huh. I admit I didn't follow Princess & the Frog's production, but I thought the reason they changed her name was because people didn't want the first black Disney princess to have a white name. I can see their point, although it does bug me that "Tiana" is kind of anachronistic considering the setting of the movie.

(And yeah, "Oriental" is outdated...but she doesn't actually said "Oriental," she says "Orient-made," and there actually is a difference. I still think she's using 'stereotypical' words to make a point--like, 'people will judge you and stereotype you, but fuck them, it doesn't matter what they call you because you know who you are and you should be yourself.' Like, I thought she was using those words defiantly. But, whatever, maybe not.)

Yeah.... no.

It goes beyond stereotypes and Gaga is in no position to speak about them.

Right, you're not from the US but you feel fit to judge whether a pop star from the US is using racist language or not.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only