fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1522 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1522 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

35. [SPOILER WARNING for Gnomeo and Juliette]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #217.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Can I interject here? I was planning on writing something formal about this in my journal, but I'll give a taste here.

SPN is sexist. It it, as all television shows I've seen are. It kills female characters left and right to appease the vocal minority. The series started with the fridging of two women. This is problematic, and the show needs to let more women live for a good long while.

However, I would never describe it as misogynistic as I've seen a great many people call it. If it was, we never would have got the female characters we've had. Anna falling to feel emotions and have an agency and being a top garrison leader never would have happened. Lilith wouldn't be the most powerful demon. Jo and Ellen wouldn't have been such bosses, who died for a cause they believed in, going out like the heroes they were. Ruby wouldn't have WON, and been made to have a body without a present host, erasing consent issues (thank you Sera Gamble). Mary wouldn't have got such an excellent amount of agency despite being dead before the show even starts, and Jessica would have just faded into the background instead of being a constant presence on the show. All of these women are strong characters (and others who I haven't mentioned).

SPN also does a subtle deconstruction in terms of male gender as well. Dean is constantly being shown as unstable, and part of that is the purely masculine facade he puts on. Men are allowed to cry and show emotions on this show, and the societal role of being 'the protector' of the ones you love, self-sacrifice included, only destroys.

The show is certainly not perfect, and there's no harm in discussing something you find offensive or off-putting. SPN DOES have faults with their female characters treatment (and minorities and queer representation, no matter how sure I am that Dean is coded as bi), and people are allowed to talk about it, but can still enjoy the show. Simple as that.

Very much this.

Also I never really got people having problems with the fact that someone can see/discuss problems whithin a show and still like it.

Right? Angel is my favorite show, and I like Buffy, but I have no problem ranting about their failures, and disliking Joss Whedon. I think it actually enriches your experience if you can discuss something you love critically.

You said exactly what I wanted to, but a thousand times more eloquently.

One day I will make a longer essay filled with exactly all my feelings about gender construction on SPN, along with an examination on each major female character, but that day has not come. Too much to do in a day, but I'll slowly get there.

I hope you do that soon. I kind of would want to read it. ^^

Working on it right now. :) Will let you know when I'm done (which may be in a few hours at the rate this is going; this post has given me so much inspiration).

You are perfect <3

<3 for this comment.

Your post is beautiful.

MOTHERFUCKIN' YES, THIS, ALL OF THIS

I don't think SPN's perfect. And I do wish the women got to live longer, but I think it does a truly impressive job at coming up with amazing, multifaceted, badass women with agency and power, heroes and villains both, women who want to accomplish shit and get it done, even when they die doing it. Ladies who want more out of life than just a husband and some kids, even though some of em do - something a lot of shows that get respect for feminism frequently fail on. Even the minor characters, the one-episode women, some of whom totally save Sam and Dean's asses, an awesomely diverse group of girls in regards to character and social class and career (sheriffs, psychics, journalists, bartenders, doctors who love to party, secretaries from Peoria, hunters, Lisa's not a one-ep woman but just for the example yoga instructors with a kid, hotel owners, flight attendants, actresses, diner waitresses who practice archery, public defenders, housewives with an interest in witchcraft, college students, occasionally an awesome demon). Pamela was awesome, Bela was awesome, Meg is awesome...I love every woman who was ever on the show, and I love its deconstructing of stereotypical Macho Male behaviour too

all this said, it could really work on bringing more in and keeping them alive, and definitely minorities & queer representation (though I also think Dean's bi). But yeah, I'm not as bothered by the show's use of the word bitch as some folks are, though it's totally their prerogative. (I probably should have just left this comment at YES THIS I AGREE cause all I'm doing is agreeing with you point by point, but I've typed too much by now to want to erase it all =/)

I would read the hell out of a formal breakdown on this subject! I hope you wind up writing it :D

I LOVE LONG REPLIES, NO WORRY. <3

Man, I wish I remembered to mention the one-shot characters too. Madison and Missouri especially were fantastic (and I liked Lisa too, though not a lot until season six). AND YOU MENTIONED BELA, YES, SHE RIVALS ANNA AND ELLEN FOR BEING MY FAVORITE FEMALE. She was so fierce, and I wish we'd gotten a more proper backstory for her, like how she ended up being a catburglar.

Dean is so obviously coded to me that I find it almost laughable that nothing's actually official, and I think the same for Gabriel, Balthazar, and Ruby (the other witch in season three who's name escapes me had me thinking this). But yeah, I'd really appreciate more POC on the show too (Rufus's awesome notwithstanding).

I want to take this comment and paste it everywhere. I've been trying to say this for years and never have gotten the cohesiveness that you brought it. THANK YOU.

YES. This...+1000

Thank you.

*hugs*

BTW, even for all of its faults, I adore this Show to pieces and probably always will.

this this this a million times this.

however, i do find it a bit sexist that all of the big baddies (excepting lucifer) are female. i understand that the writer's are trying to include more female characters, but when all of those characters are evil and end up getting ganked, i kinda have to think ur doin it rong.

i mean shit, after going all evil and starting civil war with cas, raphael's meatsuit is female. it just sucks that all of the positive, strong females like helen, jo, mary and anna end up dead. :/

rambly comment is rambly and disjointed

Aside from all the 'Stunt Demon #12' extras, there are actually an equal amount of recurring demons for both genders: Azazel, Lilith, Meg, Alastair, Ruby, and Crowley. But way too many female characters are getting ganked, and that shit needed to stop yesterday. :/ Anna's especially made me grind my teeth. Hopefully we'll see something great out of the new angel, who'll have a female body (in the upcoming Western episode).

I was actually really intrigued that Raphael's new body was a woman. I think I lost all ability to articulate with my last comment, but I always thought the angel's wouldn't have the same concept of gender as humans (except for Anna, who had been a human and would probably identify herself as a woman). Like, I'd really enjoy a more profound look into the fluidity of the angel's sexuality too, as it relates./probably rambling as well

[ SECRET POST #1522 ]

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