[ SECRET POST #1558 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1558 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 291 secrets from Secret Submission Post #223.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - take it to comments ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

You're going to get some negative comments for this, but speaking as someone who knows and has tutored a lot of conversion students, people first become attracted to Judaism for some very bizzare reasons.

Personally, I think it is because a convert to Judaism is born with a Jewish soul already. What happens when someone becomes interested in Judaism is that their soul recognises home somehow (through meeting a Jewish person, or finding out about Jewish ancestry, or going to a Jewish wedding, or walking into a synagogue out of boredom, or even just watching something about Jews on TV) and longs for it.

But - word of warning - if you are actually interested in conversion, you have a very hard time in front of you. You will be turned down several times by Rabbis, have to study for years, and at the end of it all there's no guarantee you'll be converted.

[(Anonymous)]

This is such a beautiful comment, I think I got a bit teary-eyed here. :)

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

Ahaha, thank you. :) I really enjoy tutoring conversion students. Their love of Judaism really speaks to me. And in the end, they make some of the most enthusiastic, intellectual and passionate Jews... it's a privilege to work with them, really.

/mushy comment

[slian-martreb.livejournal.com]

(Not having that much experience in converting people or with the non-Orthodox world) I would have to imagine that the hard time only really applies to those who are doing a kosher, Orthodox conversion.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

I only have experience of Orthodox or Masorti converts, too. My assumptions are similar to yours.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

Although, thinking about this, I'm pretty sure the Reform conversion is a year and a half. That may be little compared to the Orthodox conversion, but were OP to convert Reform, s/he would still have quite a long period of study to look forward to...

[slian-martreb.livejournal.com]

I have no idea of what a Masorti convert/conversion is. I'll have to check that out.

I wasn't aware that there was a 'set' time line in regards to conversion. I thought that it takes however long it takes to learn the halachos that you're going to make a part of your life. I'm sure that there are people who do an Orthodox conversion in less time if they dedicate themselves to intense study.

(A year ago, a researched something for a local Jewish publication and in the process found out about a couple that did an Orthodox conversion while the wife was pregnant and managed their new Kosher wedding in that time, too. Which tells me that they couldn't have begun the conversion process -- learning and whatnot -- until after she became pregnant because if they were already in middle, a Rav/Rabbi would not have allowed them to be 'together' without a Kosher wedding first. And again, they then had their Kosher wedding while she was still pregnant, which means they had to have done the actual conversion before the wedding, which means she was still pregnant. So that gives you an Orthodox conversion in less than 9 months)

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

The minimum amount of time is always a year, regardless of movement, because you need to live through all of the festivals. After that, it 'depends' (if a Masorti convert were to decide to convert Orthodox after ten years of living Jewish, it would be quicker, for example). In an Orthodox conversion, being sent to the Beit Din doesn't mean you are likely to get through (in the rest of the Jewish world, you're almost guaranteed by the time your Rabbi sends you to the Beit Din), and thus it depends on when they ask you to come back and how many times you're rejected.

Now, an 'Orthodox' conversion is not always accepted in the rest of the Orthodox world. It's best to convert somewhere extremely strict, like the London Beit Din, because then you're unlikely to be questioned. I've heard of cases of conversions being considered invalid because the Rabbis didn't make them learn long enough, or because it turned out one of the Rabbis was gay, or because the convert stop keeping the mitzvot, etc.

I don't know about the circumstances of the couple you are talking about, but it sounds extremely unusual - even in the most liberal circumstances, a conversion takes a year at the very least. I would suspect that either the woman became pregnant during the process, or was put through quickly because she had already been 'living Jewish' for a long time.

[slian-martreb.livejournal.com]

I said I didn't know much about conversions; the idea of living through a year of festivals makes sense and should have occurred to me on its own.

I have a feeling we're defining Orthodox in different ways. In case it helps, I'm defining 'Orthodox' as someone who grew up in Borough Park and now lives in Lakewood (if that means anything to you). Probably the equivalent of living in the Jewish Gateshead and Manchester communities, if you're bringing up London. I'm suggesting that we're not defining it the same way because you have a female name next to your LJ username and have talked about giving sermons; while women in my community would give divrei Torah to other women, they would not lead services.

I didn't interview the couple directly; I was interviewing a woman who runs a maternity gemach for wedding gowns and when I asked her for the 'most interesting' thing that happened in the course of her running it, this was the story she told. But the story was interesting not because she was a convert, but because she was getting married while pregnant and that it was already after her conversion. But I can admit that my details on the story are vague at best.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

Sorry if I seem to be making the assumption that you know about conversions! I'm just letting you know what I do about it.

And yes, I yo-yo between Modern Orthodoxy and Masorti Judaism. I wouldn't be quite as strict as to say that anything left of Gateshead isn't Orthodox, though, personally. I have given sermons in services where I wouldn't be able to 'lead' (defining that as leading prayers, as opposed to teaching) and I occasionally attend Masorti egalitarian services. I'm not suggesting that egalitarianism is Orthodox - women's issues are what keeps me more in the Masorti world than the Orthodox world. But anyway, that's enough about me.

I really can't imagine a very strict Beit Din converting her while she's pregnant out of wedlock. I'm not saying it doesn't happen (not all Orthodox conversions are perfect), but I suspect the status of her conversion would probably be questionable because of that. The frustrating thing about Orthodox converions is that they do get questioned by other parts of the Orthodox world.

[slian-martreb.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's okay -- I've just recently been 'attacked' on a Jewish women's site for things that I said or people 'assumed' that I implied despite my multiple disclaimers that I wasn't clear on the details of the halacha. Just trying to avoid that again.

What do you mean by 'women's issues'? I'm always curious as to the people who find 'women's roles in Judaism' to be negative or less than ideal. I do not feel this way despite being more aware of the global social scene and politics than most people in my very closed community.

If I'm remembering correctly, the point of converting while pregnant was so that her child should be born Jewish (as her child would have been born to a Jewish mother) and the point of getting married while still pregnant was so that her child would not be a bastard. I'm sure that the issue was more complex than that for her and the Beis Din involved, but that was the gist I got from the woman I spoke with.

Again, I don't know if that makes any sense from a halachic conversion point of view, but I do see why a woman would want her child to be Jewish and not a bastard (according to halacha, which I'm sure must be very confusing in this case when, according to civil law, she was 'married' to her husband at the time of conception. It's also something you wouldn't necessarily want to discuss while in shidduchim). But this is me not knowing the halacha, so :-)

(Also, may I say that it is so strange to engage in these kinds of conversations on LJ? I'm usually quite private about my religious life on LJ)

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

I'm not against the way that Orthodoxy treats women in general - I don't actually think Orthodoxy's attitudes to women are necessarily sexist, but there are a few things that I think the halacha is more lenient on that the Orthodox world is. Women in tefillin, for example, is not technically halachically problematic (the Talmud even speaks of a woman laying tefillin and the sages having no problem of it; the actual discussion is whether or not a woman should say the b'racha). However, within much of the Orthodox world, this is treated as if it's a great sin and insult to Judaism.

Regarding converting while pregnant... actually, babies under a certain age can go through the mikveh with the mother. It sounds like the issue was more to do with the child not being born out of wedlock (unless there's a discussion about babies going through the mikveh that I'm unaware of).

I don't think I've ever discussed halacha on LJ, either... and certainly not on FandomSecrets! :P

[(Anonymous)]

Unless you're a Hollywood star or Madonna; then, you can convert to Judaism pretty fast.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

I expect you're thinking about Reform converts, where it only takes a year or so to convert. And in Madonna's case, I thought she just started "practicing Kabbalah" - did she officially convert?

[slian-martreb.livejournal.com]

(Not having that much experience in converting people or with the non-Orthodox world) I would have to imagine that the hard time only really applies to those who are doing a kosher, Orthodox conversion.

Although I'd imagine that the Conservative conversion is 'more' Kosher than the Reform one.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

There's more discussion than you'd think in the Orthodox Rabbinate about whether or not a Masorti/Conservative conversion is kosher (I gather, from several Orthodox Rabbis I know well).

[darlas-mom.livejournal.com]

Convert here (Reform). You just made me tear up and smile at the same time. Thank you. A good portion of this thread was making me feel punched in the stomach. Your comment was practically medicinal.

[angelofcaffeine.livejournal.com]

Haha, glad I could help. :)