Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-04-25 07:38 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-04-25 07:38 pm
[ SECRET POST #1574 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 173 secrets from Secret Submission Post #225.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 - repeats ], [ 1 - unreadable ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
no subject
I think, given the OP's apparent belief that pedos should basically not masturbate, that they would probably be comically horrified by the idea of pedophiles walking around blue-balled.
most child sex offenders aren't actual pedophiles
The literature is confused as to how many child sex offenders are actually pedophiles.
That's irrelevant anyway, because nothing in my comment has anything to do with non-pedophiliac offenders. I'm not getting drawn into that discussion because it's off-topic.
One moment you say the attraction is going to make them rape kids, another moment you're not saying that.
No, I said their attractions put them at greater risk for harming children. Certainly at greater risk for harming children than an attraction to adults puts other people at risk for harming another adult, because children have far less ability to defend themselves.
Go lurk on a pedophile board for a while. Like, months. Years. Write papers on them! Conduct literature reviews! Count how many guys swear up and down that they'd never go "too far," and that they would never hurt a kid. Count how many of them you think are sincere. Count how many of them you believe.
Then count how many of those guys go to prison for child molestation over the time you spend watching the board. I promise, the number will unsettle you. Sometimes, it will be the guys you believed.
It's a fact that people tend to assume deviant sexualities are automatically out of control. I try not to assume someone is automatically out of control JUST because they are a pedophile, and I'm not actually trying to encourage that mindset with these comments.
But the thing about those boards is this: part of the reason so many of the guys on those boards end up molesting kids is probably that they've spent YEARS on those boards working out justification for it in their minds with other guys. It's not that they just can't control themselves because OMG, they want sex! And they aren't allowed! And then INEVITABLE RAEP.
It's more that they say they would never "go too far," and then they move the goalposts of "too far" a bit farther away. For perfectly logically reasons, they will argue. And then a little farther away. And a little farther. These guys will say to themselves that if they ask a kid, "can I do this?" and the kid says "yes, okay" and seems to like it/has an orgasm, that makes it okay.
Not. remotely. comparable. to a situation between adults, because if an adult says, "yes, okay," they HAVE GIVEN CONSENT, something that a child doesn't have the capacity to do.
A pedophile harming a child IS NOT INEVITABLE. People make CHOICES to do the things they do. But for an adult, with an adult's intelligence and power over a child, it's really goddamn easy. It doesn't have to be malicious on the part of the adult. It often isn't.
no subject
Wait, how does that even work as sarcasm. Was what you meant to say "Pedophiles don't get off on child porn and the child porn doesn't prevent rape."? Because otherwise... wut?
Also, I wasn't referring to the caps sentence. Obviously that's sarcasm. But that wasn't the one I asking about.
Okay, but what do you say about the fact that the child porn often leads them on a slippery slope to commit more vile acts? I've actually witnessed such in my relatives. The daddy in question started off by seeing "porn" and then began eyeing his daughter. For that matter, I don't want to have a debate on whether loli is correct or not, and some people fantasize as the bottom so whatever --what I'm worried about is the complete disregard for the other side of the spectrum where the fapping leads to other things. Rather than "prevent it" Which is still, creepily enough like saying "Guys who watch porn won't go out and rape".
... I am confused by what you're saying here, because you've just described the slippery slope which often does begin from thinking "it's okay to fap to a little more". Pedophiles need help, not encouragement which is what they get from people saying "It's better that they watch porn rather than go onto the streets". Which still smells of rape appropriation and justification.
it's really goddamn easy. It doesn't have to be malicious on the part of the adult. It often isn't.
Um. I might word that better.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 08:52 am (UTC)(link)uh what
how
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Sexual offending is not the inevitable result of pedophilia.
But for fuck's sake, pedophiliac offending is distinguished from non-pedophiliac offending solely because the motivation for the crime is sexual desire and not something else.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
pedophiliac offending is distinguished from non-pedophiliac offending
By that, I meant distinguishing between molesters who are pedophiles and molesters who aren't.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:16 pm (UTC)(link)"Rape appropriation and justification" what the fuck are you even trying to say with that? How is that appropriation? Are you just spouting off buzzwords because you think they'll strengthen your argument even though you clearly have no idea what they mean? And how is pointing out that yes, pedophiles are influenced to rape in part by the fact that they are attracted to children - not all child molesters, just the ones that are pedophiles - 'justifying' rape?
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Appropriation is when you say "The child porn keeps the pedophiles off the street". If that doesn't make any sense, whatever.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)Please look up the meanings of words before you try using them in conversation. Because what you said has absolutely nothing to do with appropriation.
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But I wonder why you're picking at semantics if you have nothing against what I said? Sheesh, anon.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:25 pm (UTC)(link)Also I'm in agreement with beandelphiki rather than you, as should be obvious from the last sentence in my first comment to you.
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Alright then. Since you're disagreeing with that, uh, ew. Ew.
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(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
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Please go back to my first comment. Note that I referred only to thoughts, fantasies and masturbation.
I know the OP WAS talking about porn. But my point was that the logical conclusion to be drawn from their statements is that pedophiles simply shouldn't masturbate (whether to porn or not), because THAT would involve "sexualizing" children. (Note how the OP says kids are "never acceptable fap targets.") I want to know what on earth the OP thinks that would accomplish.
You seem to be under the impression that I think we must provide peds with kiddie smut because they can't be expected to control themselves otherwise. No, I want to know why the OP thinks it is in some way useful to tell pedophiles that they're bad people for masturbating to even thoughts of kids.
Thoughts and masturbation alone are harmless.
But what's a useful outcome of stopping?
... I am confused by what you're saying here, because you've just described the slippery slope which often does begin from thinking "it's okay to fap to a little more".
No, I was talking about self-justifying actual sex acts with children. The slippery slope never begins with private thoughts Big Brother, it begins with, "He won't mind if I put my hand on his leg."
Pedophiles need help
You do realize you can't cure pedophilia, right? It's a hard-wired attraction.
Generally when pedophiles DO get "help" from therapists, it's in the form of identifying ways they might be starting to justify action to themselves, and learning to change/avoid that.
It's not about changing the attraction, because that can't happen. Therefore, it's also not about ceasing to masturbate to what you find attractive, because that's generally a poor way to take responsibility for meeting your own sexual needs.
rape appropriation
What the hell is that?
Um. I might word that better.
I can't. It's the truth.
I don't disagree that molesting a child is a fundamentally hateful act. But then, people in our society perform fundamentally hateful acts all the time without any conscious hatred or attempt to harm.
The subjective experience of most pedophiles is that they adore kids and have no desire to cause harm. The idea that a kid will like the molestation and even be enhanced as a person by it is typically a large part of their self-justifications. It is self-serving in that they perceive it that way because they want to, but it's not malicious.
One of the men who abused me as a child used to call me all the goddamn time on the phone to gush about my hair, my eyes, my voice, my presence in his life in general, how smart I was, what a great future I had, and how much he cherished time with me.
That is not consistent behaviour with a conscious desire to cause harm.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-04-26 11:19 pm (UTC)(link)ilu
no subject
Um... that's exactly the kind of help I was talking about. They need to keep themselves in check.
HowEVER it's still not okay to say "Porn keeps pedophiles off the street. --THAT is what I keep on saying. I still don't know why you can't see how that ties in rape with attraction. That is just begging for people to keep inspecting what the kids are wearing -kids and not only that but you've also just called people who divulge in lolishota pedophiles. Most people here seem to be saying otherwise and you're just proving them wrong.
Also disregard the word appropriation. I mixed up meanings of words. But saying that attraction leads to rape and that unable to direct that attraction will force them to molest kids is... I still don't see how you can't see what's wrong with that. Fyi that's not the truth. It's horrible that that happened to you too but you don't speak for all victims. I've had people try to abuse me and I can safely say that it was the slippery slope factor which led to it.
The subjective experience of most pedophiles is that they adore kids and have no desire to cause harm. The idea that a kid will like the molestation and even be enhanced as a person by it is typically a large part of their self-justifications. It is self-serving in that they perceive it that way because they want to, but it's not malicious.
One of the men who abused me as a child used to call me all the goddamn time on the phone to gush about my hair, my eyes, my voice, my presence in his life in general, how smart I was, what a great future I had, and how much he cherished time with me.
But seriously... I'm nauseous just hearing that.
I'm still not sure what you mean to say by "conscious desire to cause harm". What do you intend to say to pedophiles them? Telling them it's okay to be overly friendly with kids isn't cool, which is what they will do if they don't keep themselves in check.
no subject
Um... that's exactly the kind of help I was talking about.
Gotcha. People generally seem to only say that sort of thing when they think pedophilia is an abuse-acquired fetish that can be cured through talk therapy.
HowEVER it's still not okay to say "Porn keeps pedophiles off the street. --THAT is what I keep on saying.
For some bewildering reason. BECAUSE I'VE NEVER SAID THAT ONCE.
Also, MASTURBATION DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY EQUAL PORN. I don't know what world you live in where someone can say, "Okay, in case this was contextually confusing, I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about porn, JUST TALKING 'BOUT FAPPING." And all you hear is, "PR0N!"
I might say that "masturbation keeps pedophiles off the streets" - IF we're talking about someone who is working to keep a high level of self-awareness about their sexuality and is masturbating in that mindset.
I have never said - and never WILL say - that pedophiles (or any other men!) need to be provided with porn, or we can expect them to get all rape-y because they can't control themselves otherwise.
but you've also just called people who divulge in lolishota pedophiles.
Okay, actually just noticed this line on the second attempt at this comment.
What the actual fuck. I have no idea where you're getting this from.
ut saying that attraction leads to rape and that unable to direct that attraction will force them to molest kids is... I still don't see how you can't see what's wrong with that.
I don't think attraction leads to rape. As I've said.
I think that what leads to rape, in this case, is usually an attraction PLUS the long cognitive process of self-justifying acting on that attraction.
The former alone doesn't necessarily lead to anything.
But the latter wouldn't exist without the former, and I don't think it's perpetuating rape culture to say so.
I don't personally believe porn has ANYTHING to do with it. Not that I have any solid empirical evidence to back me up, but the people who believe that watching porn inevitably leads to sexual violence don't have solid empirical evidence either.
I've had people try to abuse me and I can safely say that it was the slippery slope factor which led to it.
See, when I was talking about a slippery slope, I never ONCE meant porn.
But you seem to here. I feel like your argument is the contradictory one. I mean, you've stated you're horrified by the idea that attraction leads to rape. Okay. For obvious reasons. But you seem okay with arguing that PORN leads to rape.
What is porn except a representation of attraction and fantasy? Your position doesn't make any sense. If people can control their actions before watching porn, they should be able to afterward, too.
But seriously... I'm nauseous just hearing that.
Well, I wasn't. I mean, I dreaded time with him. But I ate up the praise. It meant that someone - anyone! - liked me. Because there was no mistaking his sincerity.
I think that's what you're not grasping when you say:
I'm still not sure what you mean to say by "conscious desire to cause harm".
What's confusing about that?
If I could just find this book I own, I could quote you a sadistic, sociopathic pedophile describing (with great self-satisfaction) how he started abusing an infant with the eventual intention of breaking her mind and spirit and making her his "perfect sex slave."
THAT'S a conscious desire to cause harm. Most pedophiles aren't actually like that.
Compare this with the pedophiles on the message boards who worry about the kids they're molesting having trouble with their homework, fights with their parents, grief over losing their grandparents, etc. They DON'T want to cause harm; self-servingly, they have therefore managed to convince themselves that their actions are not harmful.
If you INTEND to cause harm, you don't bother to justify an action to yourself as harmless. If you justify it to yourself as harmless, it's probably because you don't want to cause harm.
What do you intend to say to pedophiles them?
"You're wrong," strikes me as an option.
no subject