[ SECRET POST #1582 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1582 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


01.



__________________________________________________

02.


__________________________________________________

03.


__________________________________________________

04.


__________________________________________________

05.


__________________________________________________

06.


__________________________________________________

07.


__________________________________________________

08.


__________________________________________________

09.


__________________________________________________

10.


__________________________________________________

11.


__________________________________________________

12.


__________________________________________________

13.


__________________________________________________

14.


__________________________________________________

15.


__________________________________________________

16.


__________________________________________________

17.


__________________________________________________

18.


__________________________________________________

19.


__________________________________________________

20.


__________________________________________________

21.


__________________________________________________

22.


__________________________________________________

23.


__________________________________________________

24.


__________________________________________________

25.


__________________________________________________

26.


__________________________________________________

27.


__________________________________________________

28.


__________________________________________________

29.


__________________________________________________

30.


__________________________________________________

31.


__________________________________________________

32.


__________________________________________________

33.


__________________________________________________

34.


__________________________________________________

35.

__________________________________________________

36.






Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 125 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[miezen.livejournal.com]

It's because in general, anime slash fandom wants to cling to the seme and uke tropes, and can't seem to comprehend how to keep a character written like he was in canon while writing him in a male/male pair. Because obviously his personality has to match up with the archetype for whichever position he takes. And England is physically smaller than America, who is drastically physically stronger than England. America also has a generally more dominant personality. So of course he's the seme. So England has to match the uke stereotype. Same with Romano and Spain, Finland and Sweden, etc. Pretty much every popular slash ship does this; the 'uke' character becomes a lovestruck, simpering fool who can't live without his 'seme' and goes into withdrawal if they're separated.

*Note, I'm not saying all slash fans do this. I know not all slash fans do this. I consider myself to be a slash fan and I don't do this. However, this is a major part of the slash fandom within anime as a whole, and it is something that's unique to anime slash fans. Or BL fans or yaoi fans or fujoshi or whatever you want to call them. So please don't give me a "we're not all like that" response or an "oh slashers in Western fandoms don't do that" or whatever other argument you want. Unless you want to try to deny to me that shoehorning characters into the seme and uke roles at the expense of compromising their characterization never happens.

[miss-makiba.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with you, and I've seen it happen in live action fandoms too, primarily with fans who move from yaoi to live action. I can't comprehend it myself except as an interpretation (sometimes unintentionally) of the worst stereotyping ever.

[kuromitsu.livejournal.com]

Except England is tsundere and was called such by Himaruya himself, and he has shown various traits that make it obvious that those fans are not simply coming up with aspects of his personality to make him fit their stereotypes. Are these traits often exaggerated? Yes, but they don't come entirely from fans' imagination.

That doesn't mean he must be a weepy little fluffball but then he's not always written that way. (Even though, as for being weepy, I think he cries more than any other character in the manga, except maybe for Latvia...)

[miezen.livejournal.com]

You're not really getting what 'tsundere' is, though. It doesn't mean he's some sort of lovestruck uke. All it means is that, when he likes someone, instead of just saying so like a normal person, he gets all embarrassed and flustered and angry with the person he likes instead. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'uke' archetype. It's an entirely different archetype. It's not what I'm talking about here. The way England is in canon and the way he's written in most slashfic for popular ships with him are very different. The latter is a major distortion.

By the way, a lot of the "oh America I love you I'm so sorry I was ever mean to you oh I love you I love you don't ever leave me I can't live without you" shit that's somewhat commonplace in USUK fic totally goes against what a tsundere is. So please to not wave terms around at me.

[kuromitsu.livejournal.com]

Riiight.

Sorry for the late reply, but I don't take too well to being patronized.

So please rest assured I know very well what tsundere means. (And I won't get into the whole "uke archetype" thing because I'm so, so tired of arguing about it with people who define terms by stereotypes.) Thing is, I was talking about this:

can't seem to comprehend how to keep a character written like he was in canon

England is tsundere in canon, and he's blushy and emotional and awkward and fail-y and so on. So we're not talking about fans warping a character's personality to fit an "archetype", it's people using and yes, sometimes exaggerating existing traits to fit their own preferences and preconceptions. Which, by the way, happens and has happened with every single character in every single pairing in the history of every single fandom ever.

[miezen.livejournal.com]

Except they are writing him [and countless other characters, yes, but right now we're talking about England and to a lesser extent Romano] as something that does not match who he actually is. Exaggerating something that's already there to the point that it's unrecognizable as the character anymore is still twisting the characterization into something it originally wasn't. And guess what? They are adding crap that goes against England's personality. If you know what a tsundere is, then you know that they do not readily admit that they like someone. Even if they do confess, they do their best to downplay their feelings. A stereotypical uke will eventually throw himself at his seme. "OH AMERICA I'M SORRY I'VE BEEN SUCH A JERK TO YOU I LOVE YOU AMERICA MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IN THE WHOLE WORLD DON'T EVER LEAVE ME OOH AMERICA OOH" is not tsundere behavior. No tsundere would ever do that. But a stereotypical uke would, and so England does it in fic, too. [note; that which is in caps is an exaggeration. Fics which are that over the top about it exist, but are not the majority. But things that are in that vein? Relatively prevalent. Enough so that you can't really say they don't exist.]

I really do not give a shit that it happens regularly in fandom. Okay, that's a lie, actually. That is precisely why this bothers me. It's obnoxious, I don't like that this shoehorning characters into seme and uke archetypes crap is the rule and not the exception, it shouldn't be, I'm tired of reading the same damn story in ever fandom I go to, and it's why a lot of people kind of hate slash, jsyk. It is not defensible. It is garbage and it kind of grosses me out how prevalent it is. It isn't even just bad writing, either. That's easier to stomach than acting like all relationships between two males must play out like a standard yaoi manga.

[haro.livejournal.com]

I think that Italy cries more, and by ratio of screentime, Ukraine cries more, but that's about it. England really does cry... pretty frequently, and sometimes over kind of silly things. For that matter, it's not that hard to get America to cry either. He does it several times as an adult.