Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-05-04 07:46 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-05-04 07:46 pm
[ SECRET POST #1583 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 83 secrets from Secret Submission Post #226.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
no subject
Fine. She helped construct a dimension canon. She did something the Doctor himself said was possible. She didn't stay put like a good little girl and take his word for it. Yes, it only started working when the walls to the universes were collapsing, but she went jumping from reality to reality in order to save her new zeppelin-dotted world.
Secondly, that may have been the intent but all she planned to do was get back to the Doctor by brute force.
Uh...what about the entire speech she made to her mother and Mickey about "taking a stand" and "living a better life" before running off to find a way back to the Game Station? Yes, she loved the Doctor. But she also loved -fighting- with the Doctor. She loved making a difference. The reason she tore the TARDIS apart was so that she could make a stand with him and not leave him to die alone. In my opinion? That's pretty damn heroic.
To open the Tardis was her own idea. She previously saw what looking into the Heart could do, she cataloged that and in a moment of desperation, she remembered that the only thing she was physically able to do was risk her own life and ask help from the Tardis. Intelligence is taking the tools you have around you and solving a problem. She did just that.
Then she became something more than a mere mortal, whereupon (as the Doctor himself said), she used her infinite knowledge to save the Earth.
What she didn't do:
a) Become an vengeful God
b) Bring her Dad back to life from the past
c) rewrite history so that her rather sad childhood was all ice-cream cakes and ponies
d) alter reality so that she was a millionaire or immortal and powerful for all of time.
What she did do was:
a) End the Time War
b) Bring one of her dearest friends back to life
c) Bring the Tardis back to the Doctor
Her kindness and compassion tempered the infinite power and opportunity looking into the Tardis gave her. Honestly, if I was given the ability to do ANYTHING, well...I wouldn't be quite so selfless.
But you're right. This was season one.
Season Two...well, I've already listed a whole laundry list of examples of Rose being independent and not waiting for the Doctor to rescue her. If you don't find that impressive, I'm not about to reiterate it all for you. I was initially refuting that she wasn't less independent than season one and I stand by that statement. But I still think building the Dimension Canon is a pretty big deal.
And honestly...how is loving someone and wanting to be with them "subsuming your entire existence" to them? If I was separated from my fiancé, you can bet your arse I'd try and get back to him. Or even from one of my best friends. Hell, I'd even do it for my cat.
This isn't a damsel stuck in a tower. This is a woman who knew what she wanted and went out to make it happen. Watchers of the show who claim to be feminists while condemning Rose for knowing her mind and following her desires confuse me just as much as people who claim to be feminists and then proceed to judge a woman for owning her sexuality.
But you've obviously already made up your mind, so I doubt I'll sway your opinion.
no subject
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-13 01:00 am (UTC)(link)Taking a stand than doing what? Dying? She didn't seem to have anything else in mind. It's also a nasty classist insult to Mickey and Jackie. Not everyone has a (metaphorically in this show) rich man to lift them out of a working class existence but she found one and then started talking down to someone who's doing his best to make a living and her mother. It's really unpleasant to watch. Working class life is not something to look down on and patronise.
Her kindness and compassion tempered the infinite power and opportunity looking into the Tardis gave her.
That's pure speculation. There's nothing in the episode to suggest it isn't completely the TARDIS who's taken over. It's just as valid to say she did absolutely nothing and the TARDIS saved the day.
If you don't find that impressive, I'm not about to reiterate it all for you.
I don't, no, and even with your rather desperate list, you still couldn't find an example from every episode.
...how is loving someone and wanting to be with them "subsuming your entire existence" to them?
Rose said it herself in Army of Ghosts, that it doesn't matter what she wants, if the Doctor won't stop travelling then neither will she. The Doctor wasn't her fiance. The Doctor led her on and committed to nothing, then wouldn't even let her make her own decision about whether or not to stay with him, in either Doomsday or Journey's End. That's not the sort of relationship that suggests mutual respect.
Watchers of the show who claim to be feminists while condemning Rose for knowing her mind and following her desires confuse me just as much as people who claim to be feminists and then proceed to judge a woman for owning her sexuality.
So if someone doesn't agree with you about Rose, they're not a real feminist? I'm sure that's not what you meant to say but it certainly sounds like you're saying just that in an exceptionally passive-aggressive way.
But you've obviously already made up your mind, so I doubt I'll sway your opinion.
No, please, keep trying. It's extra convincing when you try to appoint yourself arbiter of what is and isn't feminist.
no subject
Hah, no it isn't. This is a children's show, which is a genre that ultimately includes lessons about bettering yourself and your situation and changing the world.
That's pure speculation. There's nothing in the episode to suggest it isn't completely the TARDIS who's taken over.
The Doctor told Jack it was Rose. He said everything she did was "so human." The Tardis isn't human.
I don't, no, and even with your rather desperate list, you still couldn't find an example from every episode.
Oh, are we going to start using personal insults now? Because that is usually the first sign that you have nothing of value to add to this conversation. I could easily list one from every episode, but I don't really want to. I listed five examples. I was given...maybe two counter-examples? I feel like I effectively made my case.
The Doctor led her on and committed to nothing, then wouldn't even let her make her own decision about whether or not to stay with him, in either Doomsday or Journey's End. That's not the sort of relationship that suggests mutual respect.
The Doctor didn't lead her on, he loved her. We saw that he missed her and was miserable when he lost her. At the end of Season 4, he kept hoping Rose would somehow show up.
The Doctor's a jerk in general. He never really lets anyone make their own decision. Not even his own granddaughter. You never go into a relationship with a perfect person. I'm sorry, but if the whole speech about "if I believe in one thing, I believe in her?" doesn't make you believe the Doctor respects Rose's ability to get shit done, then there isn't anything to add.
So if someone doesn't agree with you about Rose, they're not a real feminist? I'm sure that's not what you meant to say but it certainly sounds like you're saying just that in an exceptionally passive-aggressive way.
That isn't what I wrote. You claimed that Rose "subsumed her entire existence to a man." As women, we are raised to think we can be anything we want. A lawyer? Go get a law degree, you can do it! Be President? Go for it! But God forbid a woman falls in love with a man and wishes to build a life with him. Then the cries of "she gave up her agency to a man!" abound. The beauty of feminism is that women should have equal consideration and rights as men. That includes choice. Rose didn't just follow the Doctor around. They were in love (as verified by...everyone on the show. Writer, producer, actors, even Karen Gillan found it obvious). She wanted to be with him and she went out and got him. In the process, however, she saved the day. A lot. She made a career for herself at Torchwood. She made these things happen for herself. She didn't even have to work in Pete's World, but she decided to do so. If she had really given up her self-identity to the Doctor, she would have made a pin-striped body pillow and cried into it every night.
A woman can be independent and still love someone. What I have a problem with is this criticism I see so often (in fiction of any kind): that when a main female character falls in love, this somehow means she gave up her identity and self-respect. Rose had an identity outside of the Doctor. She didn't follow him around like a puppy. She kicked ass. With a big gun. She often put him in his place. She was...well, she was his companion. That was the job description.
It's extra convincing...
I know I am, sweet Anon. <3 But I am going to bow out here because...well, you're anonymous. I shouldn't have even humored you this long, but I was having fun. Please try not to have an aneurysm the next time there is a Rose reference on Doctor Who. It isn't serious business.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-14 01:20 am (UTC)(link)I'm not sure how saying that your list was desperate is a personal insult. I didn't insult you, I described what you said as desperate, and it was. Looks like you've decided to call something you can't argue against a personal insult to try and gain some sort of high ground. Sorry, not working.
I could easily list one from every episode, but I don't really want to.
Sure you could.
but if the whole speech about "if I believe in one thing, I believe in her?" doesn't make you believe the Doctor respects Rose's ability to get shit done,
Yet, if Rose had been allowed to do what she wanted to, which was stay on the planet to die, then she'd be dead, the Doctor would be dead and the devil would be free. So I'm not really convinced he meant what he said. People do that sometimes, say things they don't mean.
That isn't what I wrote.
No, you implied it. Not a smart move.
as verified by...everyone on the show. Writer, producer, actors, even Karen Gillan found it obvious
Well if the people making the show say something about their own show then it must be true...so when RTD thinks goes on about how great all his episodes are, the it's wrong of me to disagree with that too I suppose? Viewers are allowed to have different views. I saw the Doctor tolerating a very naive and immature young woman, and behaving very unfairly towards her.
The beauty of feminism is that women should have equal consideration and rights as men.
Wow! Really! Teach me more about feminism! You're so insightful!
I shouldn't have even humored you this long, but I was having fun.
Aw, that's so cute. Run along now. Try not to cry next time someone doesn't like one of your favourite characters on a television show.
Or maybe try and learn something about class issues. I don't doubt Rose can be seen as a feminist character, though I disagree, but there are some unpleasant elements of classism in the way she treats Jackie and Mickey which you just flatly denied rather than arguing with, so you don't seem to be as aware of the potential issues going on there.
no subject
There is nothing to argue. You are of the opinion that my list is desperate, which is objective. I don't see how it is desperate, which is also objective. And yet...you want me to list an example from every episode? How would that be any less "desperate"?
People do that sometimes, say things they don't mean.
Ah, no. Remember when you said that I was speculating? I wasn't. This right here, however, is speculation. Unless you can back it up with something from the source, you are just scrambling for justification for your very biased opinion when there is none to be had. If you turn a blind eye to what is specifically stated in the show, then you really don't have any ground to stand on.
Well if the people making the show say something about their own show then it must be true...so when RTD thinks goes on about how great all his episodes are, the it's wrong of me to disagree with that too I suppose?
...really? Again, whether something is good or bad is an opinion. You can disagree with that all you want. But when the creator of two characters tells you what their motives/feelings are, I don't see how you can argue that. Unless, again, you back it up with material from the scripts. The actors embody the characters. If they tell you what their motivations were when they played the characters, you can't really argue with that. Well, you could. But it would be pretty useless to do so.
Teach me more about feminism! You're so insightful!
I really wish I had the time to do so.
Aw, that's so cute.
Thanks!
Or maybe try and learn something about class issues. I don't doubt Rose can be seen as a feminist character, though I disagree, but there are some unpleasant elements of classism in the way she treats Jackie and Mickey
I know enough to see that there isn't any there. Rose is of the same class as Jackie and Mickey.
Your inability to take cues from (or your blatant disregard for the material in) the show makes me a little worried about you. So I am just going to assume you're a troll. Again, I'm playing right into your hands, but the points you are making are just -so- absurd.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)Your inability to take cues from (or your blatant disregard for the material in) the show makes me a little worried about you.
Seriously? You're worried because I interpret a television show differently to you? That's a cause for concern in your eyes?
Really, do leave, and do read something about what classism actually is and how it works because your comments here just reveal your astounding ignorance and until you've got a grasp of the basics, it's just pointless trying to converse. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Look at the difference between how you're defending Rose on feminist grounds and how you're defending her against classism. Fandom is happy to talk about the former and doesn't have a clue about the latter, and this is a perfect demonstration of that.
You say "Rose is of the same class as Jackie and Mickey" so it can't be classist, which is a ridiculous defense. We are raised in a classist society, the same way we're raised in a sexist one. Women can be sexist to one another, something you yourself pointed out earlier, but you don't even grasp that class can work the same way.
So I am just going to assume you're a troll.
Well, I'm anonymous and disagree with you so I must be trolling, mustn't I? But, sure, go ahead and call me a troll if that makes you feel better. It couldn't possibly be that I genuinely think Rose Tyler is a dreadful excuse for a so-called heroine, could it? That would be impossible!
But you're the one who's reached the stage of petty name-calling here, so really, you're trolling me.
no subject
No, what concerns me is that you are ignoring blatant statements made in the show. The Doctor says that Rose performed a great feat by becoming the Bad Wolf? No, it was all the Tardis! The Doctor says that he believes in Rose? No, clearly he didn't mean what he said that day!
Really, do leave, and do read something about what classism actually is and how it works because your comments here just reveal your astounding ignorance and until you've got a grasp of the basics, it's just pointless trying to converse.
Just...stop. As someone who grew up "poor" (I immigrated to this country with my family, lived in a dreadful studio apartment with cardboard boxes for furniture, raised by mother working twelve hours a day after my father left us), I know what it is like to have to work for a living and not have many resources at my disposal. Yet I still managed to volunteer my time for various causes throughout high school and beyond. As a writer for my University's newspaper, when I cover articles about food banks and food drives, these events are often spearheaded by people of the lower socioeconomic sphere who still want to "take a stand" in the world and do what they can for their community. Yes, these are anecdotal cases, but if the opinions of these people are anything like my own, the lower classes do not need nor want you to defend or pity them and protect them against “classist” statements in television shows which are intended to be inspirational to children, empowering them to believe they can make a change in the world (irregardless of their class).
Of course, this isn't what we were originally talking about at all. You said that all Rose wanted was to be with the Doctor. I said, “no, look...here she is making a point of saying she wants to be with the Doctor because she wants to stand up for justice (which traveling with him allows her).” Your reply was, “So what, that's classist!!1one” It seems to me that you are just scrambling for anything that makes Rose look bad to justify your dislike of her. The only thing that was classist in Season One was when Jackie told Rose that she was getting “airs and graces” by working in a nice department store. Or that Mickey assumed that Rose thought she was better than him because she wanted a different life. These are classic examples for someone “wanting to go above their station.” If you had perhaps chosen a better example to argue about classism in the show, I wouldn't have been so dismissive.
It couldn't possibly be that I genuinely think Rose Tyler is a dreadful excuse for a so-called heroine, could it? That would be impossible!
I think I made a point of saying you are welcome to hate Rose Tyler. What I disagree with is trying to label her as something she isn't to perpetuate and justify that dislike.
But, sure, go ahead and call me a troll if that makes you feel better.
I'm calling you a troll because you were making, frankly, outlandish statements.
I thought you were leaving? You did take your time in that last reply to tell me that this time you were absolutely, definitely leaving.
Really, this is the most sensible thing you've said. I should have left a long time ago. It's totally sad that I said I was leaving, but came back. I lose at the internet. Go ahead and have the last word.
no subject
I don't doubt Rose can be seen as a feminist character
That isn't what you were saying a few posts up.
You're allowed to irrationally dislike a character. But trying to justify that dislike with complaints that aren't supported by the source material? Well, that just means that someone like me is going to come along and refute them.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-05-15 10:57 pm (UTC)(link)I think they are justified. I think you are wrong. That doesn't mean that I don't think you can make an argument for your POV, which is all I said, but you seem to be reading a lot more into it. I think you made a very poor argument, but still an argument.
My dislike is not irrational. Please don't try and tell me what I think or how I think, or attempt to dismiss those who have a different view to you by suggesting that they don't have real reasons to dislike a character, they're just being irrational. There are many perfectly valid and logical reasons for disliking Rose. Simply because you don't agree with something doesn't make it irrational. You'll note I've never suggested your like of Rose is irrational or that you don't have real reasons to do so. Please extend me the same courtesy.
no subject
Well...you did say things like these:
I'm afraid I don't find a woman who subsumes her entire existence to a man heroic. It's a shame you do.
This is anything but courtesy. But in an effort to end on a high note, if both of us hadn't dissolved into snark at various points in this discussion, we could have had a much more civilized and pleasant discourse. I am equally at fault for this.