Okay, first of all, I have been actively engaging on this topic in earnest for years now, and I'm getting increasingly sick of having the nonny trolls ascribed to my "side." I have no idea how much actual investment those people have in this debate, and neither do you. For all I know, they are shit-stirring for their own personal amusement and aren't kinky or fetishists at all.
Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)
But I think all of the usual potentially-triggering stuff should be warned for; I think it's a mistake to even call that "courtesy," because "courtesy" implies there's no real reason to do it. I don't see that as significantly different from the way offensive types of play (race play, "rape" scenes, Nazi-fetishism) is handled by the kink community in real life (not allowed or discussed in public spaces, or only in spaces clearly designated for that thing only, depending). That is, I think, the best compromise for kinks that make other people feel deeply violated and hated (although I doubt that is actually usually how the people with those kinks would want anyone to feel).
But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.
Someone I know in passing through these debates made the observation once that people who actually get involved in these discussions are nearly always leftists, and frequently social-justice types themselves. (Not only that, I'd observe that the majority are bound to be women as well.) And that there is probably not a group MORE emotionally vulnerable to the charge of "selfish slut!" than SJ leftist women, who already spend a significant amount of time worrying about the impact of their actions on others, and already spend enough time being shamed for their sexualities (as women).
Which is probably a large part of the reason why a significant portion of my kinky friends have been through periods of depression and/or suicidal ideation over their kinks, while the right-wing people I've met are unlikely to be bovvered so long as they're not "all sex is bad" types - and they're in the minority anyway, as self-identified kinky people are usually leftists or moderates, period.
And it's out of hand when people are not just feeling shamed in fandom, but actually leaving SJ movements over it. Not something I've been tempted to do myself, but I understand why others would.
Maybe as an American this is just "internet opinions" to you, but you live in a country where free speech is protected, and it's unlikely that someone is going to be successful in criminalizing every expression of sexuality they find offensive or hurtful to others where you are. Would it make you happy if possessing any pornography that might be offensive or hurtful to a group of people was made illegal where you are? The possibility fucking terrifies me.
I
Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)
But I think all of the usual potentially-triggering stuff should be warned for; I think it's a mistake to even call that "courtesy," because "courtesy" implies there's no real reason to do it. I don't see that as significantly different from the way offensive types of play (race play, "rape" scenes, Nazi-fetishism) is handled by the kink community in real life (not allowed or discussed in public spaces, or only in spaces clearly designated for that thing only, depending). That is, I think, the best compromise for kinks that make other people feel deeply violated and hated (although I doubt that is actually usually how the people with those kinks would want anyone to feel).
But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.
Someone I know in passing through these debates made the observation once that people who actually get involved in these discussions are nearly always leftists, and frequently social-justice types themselves. (Not only that, I'd observe that the majority are bound to be women as well.) And that there is probably not a group MORE emotionally vulnerable to the charge of "selfish slut!" than SJ leftist women, who already spend a significant amount of time worrying about the impact of their actions on others, and already spend enough time being shamed for their sexualities (as women).
Which is probably a large part of the reason why a significant portion of my kinky friends have been through periods of depression and/or suicidal ideation over their kinks, while the right-wing people I've met are unlikely to be bovvered so long as they're not "all sex is bad" types - and they're in the minority anyway, as self-identified kinky people are usually leftists or moderates, period.
And it's out of hand when people are not just feeling shamed in fandom, but actually leaving SJ movements over it. Not something I've been tempted to do myself, but I understand why others would.
Maybe as an American this is just "internet opinions" to you, but you live in a country where free speech is protected, and it's unlikely that someone is going to be successful in criminalizing every expression of sexuality they find offensive or hurtful to others where you are. Would it make you happy if possessing any pornography that might be offensive or hurtful to a group of people was made illegal where you are? The possibility fucking terrifies me.