Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #1592 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[BSG]
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03.
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04.
[Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds]
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05.
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06.
[Supernatural]
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07.
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08.
[Glee]
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09. [repeat]
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10.
[Once Upon A Time In Mexico]
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11.
[Breakout Kings]
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12.
[Supernatural]
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13.
[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]
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14.
[Invasion America]
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15.
[Zork Nemesis]
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16.
[Waiting for Godot and Good Omens]
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17.
[Withnail & I]
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18.
[Gorillaz]
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19.
[The Young Riders]
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20.
[Pride & Prejudice]
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21.
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22.
[Shantae: Risky's Revenge]
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23.
[bbc sherlock (lestrade)]
[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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24. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]
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25. [SPOILERS for Ghost Trick]
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26. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey]
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27. [SPOILERS for Death Note]
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28. [SPOILERS for the Tudors]
29. [SPOILERS for Transformers: Dark of the Moon]
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30. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
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31. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, abuse]
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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse/sexual assault]
[Glee]
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34. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]
[TRIGGER WARNING for parent death?]
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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for ]
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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, racism, abuse, and pedophilia]
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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]
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38. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]
[Kuroshitsuji II]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #227.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
no subject
I'm sorry, were we competing? You asked a question. I gave an answer. If I seemed short with you, I apologize. It was very late, I was very tired (plus I've got a chest cold kicking my ass). So, sorry.
Thought we were discussing mockery of things that are actually controversial, but I guess someone here has lost the thread of the actual conversation.
I'm guessing that someone is me, but in my head, it made sense. Warnings are controversial. What to warn for is controversial. "Warnings creep" is an actual thing people express concern about every time the debate comes back up. ("If I warn for rape, character death, eating disorders, animal abuse, insert other common trigger here, people will start asking me for warnings for beach balls or the color orange! So I don't believe in warnings at all!" Yes, that really happened. (http://zvi.dreamwidth.org/528976.html?format=light))
After you've spent years and years defending yourself with the best-thought arguments you can express and getting back nothing but a pile-on of, "you're a horrible person, kill yourself" - unanon, mind you, people proud of those opinions and not trolling - you'd come back with ten letters eventually, too. I am pretty much at that point nowadays.
I am genuinely sorry that that has happened to you. For what it's worth, I don't think you're a horrible person because you have a kink that isn't kinky for everyone. (I don't want to suggest yours is a trigger when I don't know what it is- and you are not obligated to tell me what it is. Hi, we're strangers.) And I think anyone who tells anyone else to kill themselves- whether they're anonymous or not- is a horrible person.
But I think we're coming at this from completely different experiences in fandom.
Mine has been that kink is fandom's sacred cow and expressing discomfort with a kink (even if it's in a locked, cut, warned post on my own journal not naming any names or providing any links) will result in people telling me, "Don't judge" or "Don't shame." It counts as judging or shaming to say, "This hurts" somewhere well away from the person whose kink it is? How can that be?
And that...gets exhausting.
I'm Jewish. I live in a part of my country where Antisemitism actually is a part of my daily life. In fact, given that I'm religiously a convert (ethnically Sephardi on my mother's mother's side) whose parents practice something else, Antisemitism is part of interacting with my family and their friends.
For me, Holocaust kink AUs are not awesome. They hurt. People eroticizing the torture of Jews does, y'know, bad things to my mind. And sure, I can choose not to read; I do choose not to read. But quietly wishing behind my own locked door that this wouldn't occur unwarned for in places I hang out ('cause it does- oh, G-d, it does), being told that I'm shaming someone feels like being stabbed in the heart. I live in a world where a stranger's ability to get off on something that hurts me is more important to some people- people I've liked and trusted, for that matter- than my ability to live my life without feeling like people out there really hate people like me. (Yes, I know, having a Nazi kink doesn't mean someone is an Antisemite. ...but it does mean people are getting off on the concept of other people being Antisemites, and that's a pretty awful feeling, too.)
And at that point, I'm not experiencing this as a difference of opinion. I'm experiencing it as part of the pattern of discrimination. And I'm not the only one.
People (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411237075#t411237075) mock (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411694803#t411694803) that. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411384275#t411384275) Not only do they mock it, they use it as fuel for hate speech. (http://fandomsecrets.livejournal.com/645587.html?thread=411209683#t411209683)
TL;DR- yeah. It happens.
I
Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)
But I think all of the usual potentially-triggering stuff should be warned for; I think it's a mistake to even call that "courtesy," because "courtesy" implies there's no real reason to do it. I don't see that as significantly different from the way offensive types of play (race play, "rape" scenes, Nazi-fetishism) is handled by the kink community in real life (not allowed or discussed in public spaces, or only in spaces clearly designated for that thing only, depending). That is, I think, the best compromise for kinks that make other people feel deeply violated and hated (although I doubt that is actually usually how the people with those kinks would want anyone to feel).
But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.
Someone I know in passing through these debates made the observation once that people who actually get involved in these discussions are nearly always leftists, and frequently social-justice types themselves. (Not only that, I'd observe that the majority are bound to be women as well.) And that there is probably not a group MORE emotionally vulnerable to the charge of "selfish slut!" than SJ leftist women, who already spend a significant amount of time worrying about the impact of their actions on others, and already spend enough time being shamed for their sexualities (as women).
Which is probably a large part of the reason why a significant portion of my kinky friends have been through periods of depression and/or suicidal ideation over their kinks, while the right-wing people I've met are unlikely to be bovvered so long as they're not "all sex is bad" types - and they're in the minority anyway, as self-identified kinky people are usually leftists or moderates, period.
And it's out of hand when people are not just feeling shamed in fandom, but actually leaving SJ movements over it. Not something I've been tempted to do myself, but I understand why others would.
Maybe as an American this is just "internet opinions" to you, but you live in a country where free speech is protected, and it's unlikely that someone is going to be successful in criminalizing every expression of sexuality they find offensive or hurtful to others where you are. Would it make you happy if possessing any pornography that might be offensive or hurtful to a group of people was made illegal where you are? The possibility fucking terrifies me.
Re: I
They might not be. But I'm not sure how that makes the ugliness they put out there invisible, or less hurtful. You didn't ask me to provide links to people on your "side" doing the mocking. You asked if the mocking exists. And if it's not common enough or occurring from people posting under their own names often enough or whatever else, that still doesn't make it any less hurtful.
Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)
I added emphasis to that because I think it's important to point out that just because people don't tell you it's a trigger, doesn't mean it's not one or that wasn't why they're saying something. Speaking for myself here, I hate saying I was triggered by anything. I hate it because I have a conditioned reflex to expressing pain of any kind that says, "Do this calmly, do this gently, do it rationally- don't tell anyone how much it hurts. You'll be burdening the nice people and encouraging the mean people if you say how much pain you're in." Admitting something hurts leaves me coiled in on myself, feeling terrified that the person on the receiving end is making a value judgment on whether
1) I'm telling the truth.
2) I'm not exaggerating.
3) If that matters.
How many people are there around fandom- otherwise perfectly reasonable people- claiming that sometimes, people say they were triggered as a way to push a censorship button on something they don't like? Essentially saying someone is faking it just to make their pearl-clutching sound important? And then they tsk, tsk about it because it's trivializing for people with "real" triggers?
This is why warnings and the debate surrounding them and kink shaming are not separate or tangential issues to me. Because I have been told, on more than one occasion, that asking for a warning or even displaying a warning in my own fic IS kink shaming. Because it "implies the kink is something dangerous" and "stigmatizes the people who have that kink."
Which is why this:
But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.
Gets to me. Because expressing a pained desire for warnings (privately, for that matter, not even asking the writers for them anymore, that went out the window ages ago) is counted by people I know, and some people I don't, as kink shaming. You are not addressing this, and it is the entire crux of what I am saying- go back and look at my last comment if you want: I think an *ism kink needs a warning label, and asking for one has been written off as kink shaming. Also by people who are not anonymous and are proud of that opinion. So where are we now?
Re: I
...okay, three things:
1) Point to where I even used the phrase "internet opinions" in this thread. I never did. I actually kind of think people's internet opinions are important, because I tend to assume their internet opinions are their real ones.
2) Point to me where I said anything about wanting anything banned or made illegal or even "not done." My complaint in this entire thread has been, begins and ends with, the fact that *ism kinks are not consistently held to the same warning standards in fandom as things like rape, and complaining about that is dismissed as kink shaming, and has been mocked.
3) Pornography is not actually protected speech under the United States constitution. Google "Miller v. California" sometime if you're interested in that. Pornography is not lawfully protected in the U.S if it's ruled to be obscene by community standards. Which I actually think sucks, because it allows for the prosecution of innocent people if enough people think their artwork is obscene.
II
Seriously, it is strange for you to say, "oh, I'm so sorry someone called you a horrible person," and then proceed to say shit like:
I live in a world where a stranger's ability to get off on something that hurts me is more important to some people- people I've liked and trusted, for that matter- than my ability to live my life without feeling like people out there really hate people like me.
Because that is exactly what you're doing here, kink- and slut-shaming. Do you know how many times I've read that bolded part practically word-for-word? Like anyone fucking decides what they get off to. No really, I just feel like having an orgasm that will hurt your feelings today! I love when other people feel despised! That's sekritly why I'm a feminist, donchaknow.
(And it totally erases the Jewish people with Nazi fetishes, the POC into race play, etc. "My way of dealing with my oppression is okay, but you are not allowed to deal with your oppression in a way I find upsetting.")
And yeah, someone with the same kink who is not queer, Jewish, a rape victim, a POC, etc. is ookier. But I have long since stopped being angry at anyone solely for having an offensive fetish (and not their behaviour or actual opinions), because I know damn well what it's like to have one and not be able to get rid of it. IME, sexuality is driving down a one-way street with no brakes and no reverse, so yelling "stooooop iiiiit," is fucking worthless.
And maybe it's easier to blame and shame someone for their kink than it is to admit the frightening reality that oppression and hate get deep into our consciousness without our permission, consent or control, and that has nothing to do with the kind of people we are, or the desire to hurt others, etc.... But just because it's the easier thing to do doesn't make it the right thing to do.
Re: II
That is a terrible experience, and again, I sympathize. I don't want you to hate yourself. I don't want anyone else to hate you, either. I also don't actually want you to try and stop finding kinky whatever you find kinky.
Honest. I don't.
I don't think depiction of your kink should be banned. I don't think depiction of anyone's kink should be banned.
But while you were getting angry about this:
I was complaining about this:
This does not excuse my phrasing being cruel or problematic, however, so I apologize for that. I honestly did not mean to make anyone feel ashamed for having a kink or enjoying/indulging it, or to imply that it's selfish to do any of the above. The behavior I'm hurt by and am trying to address is some people treating the expression of pain and the desire to avoid it, in and of itself, as shaming.
(And it totally erases the Jewish people with Nazi fetishes, the POC into race play, etc. "My way of dealing with my oppression is okay, but you are not allowed to deal with your oppression in a way I find upsetting.")
I speak for myself. I do not speak for everyone who spends their lives dealing with my *isms or other *isms. I again apologize if it seems like I was trying to.
And maybe it's easier to blame and shame someone for their kink than it is to admit the frightening reality that oppression and hate get deep into our consciousness without our permission, consent or control, and that has nothing to do with the kind of people we are, or the desire to hurt others, etc.... But just because it's the easier thing to do doesn't make it the right thing to do.
You know, there is actually not one part of this statement I disagree with? Not one.