Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-05-13 08:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #1592 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[BSG]
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03.
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04.
[Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds]
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05.
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06.
[Supernatural]
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07.
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08.
[Glee]
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09. [repeat]
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10.
[Once Upon A Time In Mexico]
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11.
[Breakout Kings]
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12.
[Supernatural]
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13.
[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]
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14.
[Invasion America]
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15.
[Zork Nemesis]
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16.
[Waiting for Godot and Good Omens]
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17.
[Withnail & I]
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18.
[Gorillaz]
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19.
[The Young Riders]
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20.
[Pride & Prejudice]
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21.
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22.
[Shantae: Risky's Revenge]
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23.
[bbc sherlock (lestrade)]
[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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24. [SPOILERS for Supernatural]
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25. [SPOILERS for Ghost Trick]
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26. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey]
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27. [SPOILERS for Death Note]
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28. [SPOILERS for the Tudors]
29. [SPOILERS for Transformers: Dark of the Moon]
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30. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
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31. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]
[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]
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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, abuse]
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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for abuse/sexual assault]
[Glee]
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34. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]
[TRIGGER WARNING for parent death?]
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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for ]
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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, racism, abuse, and pedophilia]
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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]
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38. [TRIGGER WARNING for sexual abuse]
[Kuroshitsuji II]
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #227.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
I
Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)
But I think all of the usual potentially-triggering stuff should be warned for; I think it's a mistake to even call that "courtesy," because "courtesy" implies there's no real reason to do it. I don't see that as significantly different from the way offensive types of play (race play, "rape" scenes, Nazi-fetishism) is handled by the kink community in real life (not allowed or discussed in public spaces, or only in spaces clearly designated for that thing only, depending). That is, I think, the best compromise for kinks that make other people feel deeply violated and hated (although I doubt that is actually usually how the people with those kinks would want anyone to feel).
But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.
Someone I know in passing through these debates made the observation once that people who actually get involved in these discussions are nearly always leftists, and frequently social-justice types themselves. (Not only that, I'd observe that the majority are bound to be women as well.) And that there is probably not a group MORE emotionally vulnerable to the charge of "selfish slut!" than SJ leftist women, who already spend a significant amount of time worrying about the impact of their actions on others, and already spend enough time being shamed for their sexualities (as women).
Which is probably a large part of the reason why a significant portion of my kinky friends have been through periods of depression and/or suicidal ideation over their kinks, while the right-wing people I've met are unlikely to be bovvered so long as they're not "all sex is bad" types - and they're in the minority anyway, as self-identified kinky people are usually leftists or moderates, period.
And it's out of hand when people are not just feeling shamed in fandom, but actually leaving SJ movements over it. Not something I've been tempted to do myself, but I understand why others would.
Maybe as an American this is just "internet opinions" to you, but you live in a country where free speech is protected, and it's unlikely that someone is going to be successful in criminalizing every expression of sexuality they find offensive or hurtful to others where you are. Would it make you happy if possessing any pornography that might be offensive or hurtful to a group of people was made illegal where you are? The possibility fucking terrifies me.
Re: I
They might not be. But I'm not sure how that makes the ugliness they put out there invisible, or less hurtful. You didn't ask me to provide links to people on your "side" doing the mocking. You asked if the mocking exists. And if it's not common enough or occurring from people posting under their own names often enough or whatever else, that still doesn't make it any less hurtful.
Secondly, I got pissed because of you going off on what I think is a serious tangent with the triggers thing. Based on what you've said, I really don't think we disagree at all about triggers, and would probably be arguing the same thing in that debate (oh god, another debate I'm really sick of). But I consider it to be only somewhat related; generally, when people get upset about "offensive" kinks, it's not because they were actually triggered. (Or if they are, they do not mention it.)
I added emphasis to that because I think it's important to point out that just because people don't tell you it's a trigger, doesn't mean it's not one or that wasn't why they're saying something. Speaking for myself here, I hate saying I was triggered by anything. I hate it because I have a conditioned reflex to expressing pain of any kind that says, "Do this calmly, do this gently, do it rationally- don't tell anyone how much it hurts. You'll be burdening the nice people and encouraging the mean people if you say how much pain you're in." Admitting something hurts leaves me coiled in on myself, feeling terrified that the person on the receiving end is making a value judgment on whether
1) I'm telling the truth.
2) I'm not exaggerating.
3) If that matters.
How many people are there around fandom- otherwise perfectly reasonable people- claiming that sometimes, people say they were triggered as a way to push a censorship button on something they don't like? Essentially saying someone is faking it just to make their pearl-clutching sound important? And then they tsk, tsk about it because it's trivializing for people with "real" triggers?
This is why warnings and the debate surrounding them and kink shaming are not separate or tangential issues to me. Because I have been told, on more than one occasion, that asking for a warning or even displaying a warning in my own fic IS kink shaming. Because it "implies the kink is something dangerous" and "stigmatizes the people who have that kink."
Which is why this:
But when something IS warned for, yeah, people need to stop it with the shaming.
Gets to me. Because expressing a pained desire for warnings (privately, for that matter, not even asking the writers for them anymore, that went out the window ages ago) is counted by people I know, and some people I don't, as kink shaming. You are not addressing this, and it is the entire crux of what I am saying- go back and look at my last comment if you want: I think an *ism kink needs a warning label, and asking for one has been written off as kink shaming. Also by people who are not anonymous and are proud of that opinion. So where are we now?
Re: I
...okay, three things:
1) Point to where I even used the phrase "internet opinions" in this thread. I never did. I actually kind of think people's internet opinions are important, because I tend to assume their internet opinions are their real ones.
2) Point to me where I said anything about wanting anything banned or made illegal or even "not done." My complaint in this entire thread has been, begins and ends with, the fact that *ism kinks are not consistently held to the same warning standards in fandom as things like rape, and complaining about that is dismissed as kink shaming, and has been mocked.
3) Pornography is not actually protected speech under the United States constitution. Google "Miller v. California" sometime if you're interested in that. Pornography is not lawfully protected in the U.S if it's ruled to be obscene by community standards. Which I actually think sucks, because it allows for the prosecution of innocent people if enough people think their artwork is obscene.