[ SECRET POST #1615 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1615 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 08 pages, 185 secrets from Secret Submission Post #231.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[kylenne.livejournal.com]

Honestly, partisans on both sides piss me the fuck off because they all completely miss the point 99% of the time. And I say this as someone who played mage mains in both games and is generally sympathetic to mages moreso than templars. The entire point of the conflict is that nobody's hands are clean. Both factions have valid points to their arguments, that's what makes the conflict so difficult. What myopic templar fans are basically arguing is that the ends justify the means, and what myopic mage fans are basically arguing is that mages can do no wrong, ever and templars are so meen (when they are not bringing IRL biases and personal ~edgy atheism~ into the mix when bashing the Chantry). The solution probably lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes--there's a reason that Meredith is still the Big Bad even if you side with the templars, and there's a reason Anders' action is condemned by Orsino. If there's one idea the Dragon Age series as a whole consistently puts forth, it's that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions. People frequently justify their heinous actions by believing it was for the good of whatever ideal they're fighting for. Hell, even in the first game, Loghain was just trying to protect Ferelden from Orlais, after all, and Branka just wanted to make golems to protect Orzammar from the Darkspawn.

Personally I don't think the writers did this any favors when they leather pants'd and brought back Cullen for DA2 because a segment of fans had boners for him. Nor did they do any favors by making mages so sympathetic in the first game and pulling a complete 180 for the second one. I hope they go with a more balanced portrayal for DA3.

Also, while I'm on unpopular fan opinions, fuck Anders. I think he's a selfish, arrogant prick from any standpoint, and any goodwill/sympathy I may have had for him flew out the window when he gave me shit about dating Fenris and implied that he was little more than an animal; it was also hella sexist to me playing a femHawke. Honestly, it just felt like nothing but jealous butthurt because Hawke was fucking some other dude besides him, and having it come in the middle of me helping his lying, user ass pull off an act of terrorism I would never support did nothing to endear him to me.

So yeah, I killed him in my game, and felt no guilt about it whatsoever. The only problem I have with it is that the only options are to kill him or to basically give him a pass because I couldn't bear to kill my friend or w/e. Given those two options, I chose killing him, BUT I would have preferred a third option where I let him live but told him the fuck off and got to explain I wasn't about to let him die as some ~martyr to the cause~ when he was responsible for the deaths of so many innocent people, including many of the people he supposedly was trying to free. As a mage sympathizer, I feel like he's the best possible argument for the Circle (a reformed one, yes, but one nonetheless).

*cleans up after self*

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

Branka just wanted to make golems to protect Orzammar from the Darkspawn

This is my only issue - I think that USED to be true, but I feel like Branka lost sight of this YEARS ago. I think now she just wants the power and to get her hands on this.

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

Branka definitely went mad over her time down in the Deep Roads, but Loghain wasn't much better. He was so blinded by his refusal to let Orlais back into Ferelden in any way, even if it was the only way to save the people from the Blight, that he lost sight of how to truly protect the people. His actions cause a civil war in Ferelden, and when he demands that the people of Ferelden unite to fight the darkspawn at the Landsmeet, he gets pissy when they vote against him. He saw himself as the only one who could save Ferelden, much like Branka saw the Anvil as the only way to protect Orzammar. We just get to stop Loghain before his madness and paranoia completely consume him.

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

Still, I feel that while Loghaine could no longer see himself or what he was sacrificing, he still knew what he was fightibg FOR. I feel like Branka even lost sight of that, in the end.

[kylenne.livejournal.com]

You could make just as good an argument for Loghain having gone off the deep end and forgotten what he was fighting for, just trying to hang onto power for its own sake. I mean, for all that talk about preserving Fereldan freedom he sure was quick to sell Fereldans off into slavery to achieve it. At this point we're just talking semantics. Given a few years left unchecked, he might well have gone as crazy as Branka. The Tevinter plot in the Alienage and associating with people like Howe certainly indicates it.

The point is, both characters started off perfectly reasonable, believing that what they were doing was right and that anything they did was excusable in pursuit of a noble goal. It's kind of a running theme...people often lose sight of their ideals in this 'verse because power corrupts, and they frequently become the thing they hate in the process (to wit: Meredith being driven insane by the lyrium idol and basically becoming what amounted to an Abomination herself).

[mondaisenshi.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not debating that Loghain was well on his way and would have become just as bad as Branka rather soon, but in my personal interpretation, he wasn't there yet. And that's not to say he wasn't already despicable, but I feel that he was not yet beyond redemption, while Branka was.

Of course, ymmv and whatnot, I just saw an opportunity to comment on my personal perspective. :D

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

True, Loghain does get rational once he's defeated while Branka fights to the death, which proves that he wasn't completely lost to madness. I think it's something of a shame that there's only the option to Warden-ify him or kill him, rather than locking him away and dealing with his crimes after the Blight, forcing him to see that he is the one who divided Ferelden and nearly lost the nation to the Blight, though I understand completely why those are the only two options.

Frankly, given how much Loghain ties into the direct themes and arcs of the first game, I really kind of wish DAO had ended at the Landsmeet. THAT felt like the triumphant ending, with the assault on Denerim feeling more like it was tacked on at the end.

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

BUT I would have preferred a third option where I let him live but told him the fuck off and got to explain I wasn't about to let him die as some ~martyr to the cause~ when he was responsible for the deaths of so many innocent people, including many of the people he supposedly was trying to free.

That's why I let him live myself, along with the fact that I see him as WANTING to die in that moment. Killing him is a mercy. It just bugs the crap out of me that if he's left alive, the dialogue is all 'hooray for Chantry destruction and massive death!' I can't bring myself to make him a martyr, but I don't want to say that he is able to get away scotfree. And this is why I'm currently writing a 'Hawke viciously tears Anders a new one for what he's done' fic.

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

I would absolutely read that fic. Aghhh still pissed off at Anders.

[(Anonymous)]

Re: Anders - this is another place where the game falls down flat on its face. It removes all the impact and any possible maturity by boiling it down to "kill him if you think he was wrong, let him live if you are a huge nazi who loves murdering innocents!" decision. Killing people you have the smallest ideological difference with is such a horrible, video-gamey way of resolving conflicts, and it would have been infinitely more satisfying to at least tell him all of the ways in which he was a massive asshole. But then, I think the writers genuinely believed they were creating a sympathetic character that people would be morally conflicted over, and so they didn't really think it through. In general they were just really bad at predicting what players would want to say and do.

Man, Anders is just skeevy in so many ways. Almost instantly trying to get into a relationship with Hawke (and being pretty pushy about it!), insulting anyone else Hawke dates in really offensive ways, constantly parading around in a self-pitying "ooh, aren't I a tragic hero! I shall sacrifice myself for the greater good!" way... arghhhh!!!

[iapetusneume.livejournal.com]

I totally hear you on the being angry how both sides are massively screwed up in portrayal in the game. And in any group of people you'll have all sorts. Yes it was good to see blood mages in this game, but there were too many. I think the only mage I spared was... that one Orlesian dude who was drunk off his ass and a bit of an idiot? (There was that one girl that Anders killed but that's because I picked the wrong choice on the conversation tree.)

On my first playthrough I did pro-mage, and I was so pissed when Orsino resorted to blood magic. And later it was revealed that he helped the serial killer. I got the point of the danger of mages by that point in the game, and it would have been good to see someone who didn't completely lose their shit. Also, he seemed so reasonable and even he understood the dangers of mages but still realized there had to be some reform.

I'm just curious, how did you feel about Anders in Awakening? I liked him there and I... really don't like what happened to him in DAII.

[dgcatanisiri.livejournal.com]

Maybe I'm just an apologist for the game, but I see it as being an expression of how the two sides are really so damn similar - at that point, both sides are basically saying that the ends justify the means.

I DO agree, though, that it is off balance, that there aren't enough sane mages to counter the crazy blood mages. And Orsino's use of blood magic does piss me off, especially since I usually have most of the remaining mages still standing when he goes all Harvester. Hell, just a cutscene with a new group of templars storming in and wiping out the mages would have made that flow better, to show him cracking.

Part of the problem is that the First Enchanter is the only authority figure in the Circle we meet - there's no second enchanter or anything to serve as the voice of reason in the last act like Cullen does for the templars.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Well if we're gonna split hairs I really think both sides are cray-cray/have blood on their hands, but I think that's actually the general consensus with most fans. Just, if I HAD to pick (like the game makes you pick... ugh), I would pick templar for the ends-justify-the-means factor.

Ahahaha everything you say of Anders is 100% true; I think he's the kind of douche I'd hate in RL but love as a character because he's flawed to the point of making you tear your hair out. If you don't love him, you love to hate him~