fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1620 ]

[ SECRET POST #1620 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1620 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae wo Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]

__________________________________________________

02.

[Hetalia]

__________________________________________________

03.

[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha]

__________________________________________________

04.

[Michael Silas/Asiel Hardison, Lady Gaga's dancers]

__________________________________________________

05.

[Tiger & Bunny]

__________________________________________________

06.

[Evangelion]

__________________________________________________

07.

[Zero Punctuation]

__________________________________________________

08.

[The Catherine Tate Show]

__________________________________________________

09.

[Grimgrimoire]

__________________________________________________

10.

[wonderful days, guyver, cowboy bebop, texhnolyze, togainu no chi, black lagoon, samurai champloo, aishiteruze baby, tenjo tenge]

__________________________________________________

11.

[X-Men: First Class]

__________________________________________________

12.

[Tales of the Abyss]

__________________________________________________

13.

[Human Target]

__________________________________________________

14.

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

__________________________________________________

15.

[Masterchef Australia]

__________________________________________________

16.

[Sucker Punch]

__________________________________________________

17.

[Mystique]

__________________________________________________

18.

[Workaholics]

__________________________________________________

19.

[Mark Reads]

__________________________________________________

20.

[Jamie Campbell Bower ]

__________________________________________________

21.

[Hey Arnold!]

[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

__________________________________________________

22. [SPOILERS for Homestuck]

__________________________________________________

23. [SPOILERS for Gintama]

__________________________________________________

24. [SPOILERS for Kamen Rider Kabuto]

__________________________________________________

25. [SPOILERS for Loveless]

__________________________________________________

26. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]

__________________________________________________

27. [SPOILERS for Mockingjay]

__________________________________________________

28. [SPOILERS for Kung Fu Panda 2]

[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

__________________________________________________

29. [TRIGGER WARNING for non-con]

__________________________________________________

30. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

[Game of Thrones]

__________________________________________________

31. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]

__________________________________________________

32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

__________________________________________________

33. [TRIGGER WARNING for transphobia?]

__________________________________________________

34. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

[SPN]

__________________________________________________

35. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, pedophilia]

__________________________________________________

36. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]

__________________________________________________

37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-injury, suicide]

[Manic Street Preachers]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #231.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

This.

Heck, I challenge you to direct me to female-written fantasy novels that aren't female fantasy.

Innie, outtie, or other - at some point someone's gonna' be typing with one hand.

Farseer series

What, by Robin Hobb? With the tempestuous redhead author avatar who gets with what she herself describes as the two hottest guys in the series, and the fangirl representation of homosexuality?

Lawl, try again.

tempestuous redhead author avatar

who? The only redhead I remember is...Hands's wife? Who doesn't even get any screen time? idek.

We must be talking about different Robin Hobb series. There's a fair amount of homo- in the Farseer series, but the (very small amount of vaguely described) sex is all het. I've heard discouraging things about some of her other series, so I can understand if you have reservations about those. But try the Farseer series, because whatever you're complaining here about is not in it.

Molly and the Fool aren't in the Farseer series? Pretty sure they are.

You're right, though. It gets worse, so much worse, in some of her other series.

Molly wasn't a redhead...? There's one offhand mention of "reddish glint" offered by someone antagonistically trying to sexualize her, but no Mary Sue-esque odes to her fiery, sparking locks or whatever it is you seem to be implying.

She wasn't the POV character, and she wasn't even on screen for most of the series. I don't even know how it's possible for her to be a wish fulfilment avatar. She'd need to be actually in the story. Yikes, if female characters can get accused of being Mary Sues when they're not even present, we're really screwed.

The Fool never identified himself as homosexual, and never had sex. There's a weird scene in the last book which MIGHT have been sexual, but who even knows what was going on there. Certainly it wasn't a sexy fantasy in any case.

I won't be reading RH's other series any time soon. Some excerpts and RH's own bizarre exclamations about fanfic are enough for me.

Molly was a redhead. It's mentioned a few times, and no she doesn't have to be a POV character to get with the two men described as the hottest guys in the series and exist as an author proxy (clearly). It was actually my guy friends who pointed out that she has basically no flaws, is always right, exists as an object to be adored, and shares many traits in common with the author - I'd missed it until then, just found her largely flat. They're right, though.

You haven't read the Tawny Man or the Liveship Traders series, I see. Not only is Molly's position much clearer, but the Fool does identify himself as homosexual. Just about the most stereotypical fangirl representation of a homosexual male I've ever seen in print.

Seriously, dude, you need to start reading books before you critique them.

We only ever see Molly through the eyes of the boy harbouring a lifelong teenage infatuation with her. I found her largely flat too, for that obvious reason. I found her fairly obtuse as well, and I'm not sure that wasn't intended to be perceived as a flaw by the author.

I have NO idea what RH's personal traits are. The fact remains that Molly was absent for most of the series (both Farseer and Tawny Man, and obviously Liveship), and her role in the story was very limited. I have my own issues with the end of Tawny Man (don't we all), but I think it's just skewed to claim that Molly in any way dominates the story.

If you want to talk about how Molly and her insipid heteronormative happy-ever-after comes in completely out of left field at the very end, though, go for it!

The Fool doesn't identify as male, and never says that he's attracted exclusively to males, or that his sexual history is limited to males. I'm not sure what you mean by "stereotypical fangirl representation...". I could guess, but I'm tired of chasing your cheap insinuations and condescending bullshit.

I never claimed Molly dominated the story. That's something you've invented. What I said about her - that she shares traits with the author, is tempestuous, flawless, and has the two most attractive men in the series falls for her - are true and you haven't even address them, just gone off on your own tangents.

The Fool is described as "he" and while he does dress as a woman at one point Fitz calls him he and he does not correct this, ever. You're right that he might be better described as bisexual, though, my bad - he does say that gender doesn't concern him with regard to lovers. You're right, there.

I could guess, but I'm tired of ~~chasing your cheap insinuations and condescending bullshit~~ you pointing out the flaws in the interpretations of books I'm gravely underselling as hard as I possibly can to make my point.

Fixed that for you. I'd be more contrite if you hadn't condescended to me from the very beginning of this conversation, with the assumption that I could not possibly be correct about book which - in your own admission - you haven't read (Hobb's other works, though you're stating differently now) or barely remember (GRRM's). Don't argue tone when your own's been appalling.

I said I don't know which of the author's traits she shares, and that I perceived a flaw. That's addressing your points as much as I can. Don't think I can do much about "tempestuous", as it doesn't mean anything one way or another about the quality or Mary Sue-ish-ness of a character.

The reason it matters whether or not Molly dominates the story is, that the criticism she's an author-avatar doesn't matter if she doesn't. If she doesn't participate much in the story, it doesn't matter if she's modeled after RH or Stephanie Myer or someone's cat.

I replied to "lawl" with honest questions, as you seemed to be talking about a completely different series. I still don't recall where Molly was described as a redhead, so I've never imagined her that way. And since there is no homosexuality in the series - and there IS homosexuality in other of RH's books - I think it's a justifiable assumption. You've been condescending from the start, not me.

I've read Farseer, Liveship, and Tawny Man, since they are all in the same world and timeline. RH has written other books besides those.

If she doesn't participate much in the story, it doesn't matter if she's modeled after RH or Stephanie Myer or someone's cat.

It does matter, because - even if she is in the story for brief interludes, like Clive Cussler's self-insert in his Dirk Pitt books - is it still wish-fulfillment. And that's what we're talking about here - female fantasy. Which Molly is, for the reasons I've stated, and you still haven't challenged. You're making this about "Mary-Sueishness" or whatever, something I never even mentioned. For the record, I said she was an "author avatar" instead of a "Mary-Sue" because I don't think she is the latter, at all. Like Clive Cussler's green-eyed wanderer, she's just fantastical wish-fufillment.

And since there is no homosexuality in the series

Yes, there was. The Fool was male; his sexual love interest Fitz was male. You're correct that the Fool is better described as bisexual, but now you're going overboard for the sake of making a point. It isn't helpful.

You've been condescending from the start, not me.

~~I know you are but what am I~~ Yes, you have been. But I could have responded better, true. Though I think this was the crux of our miscommunication: I assumed you meant you'd only read the original assassins trilogy and not her "other works" - meaning the Tawny Man, Liveship Traders, etc. - hence my "try reading the books" was not meant to be condescending, it was meant to be a statement of fact because I thought you had just said that you'd not read them. I'm sorry you took it that way, that would be offensive, yes.

I know she has other books. Like the Soldier's Son triology, and Dragon's Keeper. I've read them all - I love Robin Hobb. But she absolutely does indulge in female fantasy and wish fufillment.

Then again, so do most of my favourite male fantasy authors. This was all in defense of GRRM doing just that.

The Fool's "sexual love interest" was way, way less sexual than any other romantic relationship in the series. He didn't have sex with Fitz (well...did he? Can you tell?) or any other man, "she" didn't correct people's pronouns as Amber, he could have been bisexual, asexual, female, intersex, neuter, or a third sex - we don't know. If you say that the Farseer series contains homosexuality, it just reads to me as what so many conservative audiences typically do, which is have a very much more sensitive measure for "sexuality" when it's homo-.

I take "homosexuality" to mean "sex between men". Homoerotic subtext or homoromantic/genderqueer content are different things. Especially when you consider that there are confirmed men who actually have sex with other men in other of RH's books.

If you're convinced Molly is an author avatar, I can't contradict you because again, I don't know how she resembles RH. I do think that assessment is questionable, and I do think Molly's role in the story is so limited that her status as a possible wish fulfilment avatar doesn't make the series as a whole an exercise in female wish fulfilment.

But Fitz, as you'll recall, sees the Fool naked, and calls him "he" - so the Fool is at the very least biologically male, even if s/he does identify as a woman, genderqueer, other - it's besides the point because whether or not other people in her other series are "men having sex with men" it does not automatically mean "there is no homosexuality" in the Farseer trilogy because it lacks gratituous sex scenes. Again, that's hopelessly reductionist, and it detracts from rather than adds to your point. Erasing the Fool's sexual interest in Fitz - a sexual interest he states in the Tawny Man - because it's never culminated in physical sex is very dubious. I like the Fool, even if I do find Hobb's representation of him problematic. He's presented as biologically and gendered male and he has an interest in another male. I take him at his word.

Fair enough, but I think it quite clearly does, as per Clive Cussler's self-insert wanderer. Again, a limited role, but equally flawless (he always knows the key to helping Dirk, whereas Molly always knows the best solution and wins men's hearts effortlessly). If by your personal definition an author avatar can't play a small role, well, I suppose that's your own personal definition, then. I don't happen to share it.

(no subject)

tuff-ghost.livejournal.com - 2011-06-12 13:11 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

ariseishirou.livejournal.com - 2011-06-12 14:53 (UTC) - Expand

Should add that I still adored the Farseer trilogy - much as I love GRRM's stuff - but much of it is shameless fe/male fantasy, sry2say.

Mary Gentle's "Ash: A Secret History"
K J Parker's "The Hammer"

Haven't read them, but I will give them a shot!

Mary Gentle's "Grunts".

Oh sweet I'd heard of that. I'm getting a lot of (hopefully) good recs here. Thanks!

Emily Rodda's Deltora Quest.

Granted, it's a children's series, but I find it far better written than a lot of adult ones. (I have so much praise for the series, it's ridiculous. Just don't let the cliched sounding plot put you off. EVERYTHING IS EXPLAINED AND MAKES SENSE LOGICALLY.)

Right, posted a reply, but it seems to not have gotten through, so apologizing if you're reading this again.

Emily Rodda's Deltora Quest.

It's a children's series, but it's brilliantly written and every single fantasy trope it uses MAKES SENSE LOGICALLY. Like the plot has the heroes travelling around the land trying to collect seven magic jewels in various dangerous places that, once reunited, would banish the Shadow Lord in control of the land. Reason why the Shadow Lord hasn't destroyed the jewels? Because the jewels are magic talismans from seven different parts of the land, gifts from the land that cannot be destroyed and cannot be taken outside of the country's borders. Reason why they're scattered is because once separated from each other, each jewel longs to return to the place it originated from and bends the will of the carrier to take it there. Maybe I haven't read enough fantasy, but I like it when the author takes out a little bit of their time to explain stuff like this instead of handwaving it. (Plus, the series has kick ass females.)

Isn't that Dragonball?

Ursula K. Le Guin and possibly Patricia McKillip for the ladies... and Philip Pullman for the men? I have issues with that guy's writing, but they're unrelated to the topic at hand. P: Michael Ende, too!

Ah yes, those are the two types that tend to be reflexive enough to avoid pitfalls of wish fufillment, aren't they - the authors who write fantasy as speculative fiction (see C.S. Friedman) and the hard leftists. Good point. Le Guin is a great example.

You absolutely took the words out of my mouth, I was gonna rec LeGuin and Pullman too!

Some of Robin McKinley's stuff I think might fit into that category, too. Monica Hughes is A+, but she does mostly sci-fi. Eh, soft sci-fi and fantasy's mostly the same thing though?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only