[ SECRET POST #1620 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1620 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


01.
[Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae wo Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai]



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02.
[Hetalia]


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03.
[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha]


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04.
[Michael Silas/Asiel Hardison, Lady Gaga's dancers]


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05.
[Tiger & Bunny]


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06.
[Evangelion]


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07.
[Zero Punctuation]


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08.
[The Catherine Tate Show]


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09.
[Grimgrimoire]


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10.
[wonderful days, guyver, cowboy bebop, texhnolyze, togainu no chi, black lagoon, samurai champloo, aishiteruze baby, tenjo tenge]


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11.
[X-Men: First Class]


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12.
[Tales of the Abyss]


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13.
[Human Target]


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14.
[A Song of Ice and Fire]


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15.
[Masterchef Australia]


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16.
[Sucker Punch]


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17.
[Mystique]


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18.
[Workaholics]


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19.
[Mark Reads]


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20.
[Jamie Campbell Bower ]


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21.
[Hey Arnold!]












[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]












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22. [SPOILERS for Homestuck]



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23. [SPOILERS for Gintama]



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24. [SPOILERS for Kamen Rider Kabuto]



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25. [SPOILERS for Loveless]



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26. [SPOILERS for Doctor Who]



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27. [SPOILERS for Mockingjay]



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28. [SPOILERS for Kung Fu Panda 2]

















[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]


















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29. [TRIGGER WARNING for non-con]



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30. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

[Game of Thrones]


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31. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]



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32. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]



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33. [TRIGGER WARNING for transphobia?]



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34. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

[SPN]


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35. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape, pedophilia]



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36. [TRIGGER WARNING for eating disorders]



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37. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-injury, suicide]

[Manic Street Preachers]






Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #231.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Its world is definitely misogynistic, and the closest it comes to examining/interrogating that is simplistic male rape-avenger fantasy.

Brienne is somehow examining/interrogating misogyny as a simplistic rape-avenger fantasy?

Why is it so hard to actually read the books?

[murderershair.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I want to know how Sansa's story is a male rape-avenger fantasy, too. Not to mention Arianne Martell.

[agnes-bean.livejournal.com]

I don't feel like ANY of the female characters' stories really fall into that trope, TBH. Some of them kind of do, but all are more nuanced than that, IMO.

[(Anonymous)]

Because parts of them are seriously off-putting, for reasons I have explained above, and it's tiring to slog through that much crap chasing a few stray glimmers of interesting development.

Also, considering GRRM's track record of crap, I'm not convinced that Brienne is not going to end up dead, or a romantic object for the preferred vehicle of action, Jamie.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

She's still not any kind of rape-avenger fantasy, we don't know what will happen to her, there are plenty of other women (in fact, almost all of them) that interrogate this world from a femininst perspective that is not a rape-avenger fantasy, so you're still completely wrong.

Seriously, read the books. If semi-realism is still "off-putting" then maybe fanta-historical is not for you, and you'd be better off sticking with high fantasy. No shame in that - he does deal with some grim subject matter.

[(Anonymous)]

She's a woman who gets herself respected by physical violence. That's very, very much a part of the rape-avenger fantasy.

Please, tell me more about being completely wrong. Oh, and how I'm ~TOO SENSITIVE~~ for realism.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Uh.... I kinda'... already did. You've just ignored the part about how the vast majority of the female characters have nothing to do with a rape-avenger fantasy, and Brienne herself is a realistic woman who can fight, and who's never been raped. I've taken kendo lessons and was pretty good at them - am I a rape-avenger fantasy now?

I, uh, don't really need to at this point. You're saying things about the books that are demonstrably untrue, and admitting you haven't really read them. As well as making clear that the gritty character of the world is what you don't like about it.

So if you'd like to hear more, by all means, keep talking. Then we all get to here more about how you're wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

I didn't say that every female character in the series fits into a rape-avenger fantasy.

I said that the closest the series comes to interrogating misogyny is rape-avenger fantasy. Nothing you've raised yet challenges that, despite all your accusations about my having never read the books (cheap, and I have. Didn't like them well enough to remember much, or to re-read, though.)

Some of them, like Sansa, fit into other patriarchal tropes.

I also didn't say that every woman who engages in physical activity is part of a rape-avenger fantasy, so I'm not sure why you're telling me about your kendo lessons.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Yes, I have. Cersei points out that the sole reason that she doesn't hold the same power as the men in her company is her lack of cock - she is POV character, and she reflects on this many times. Arianne Martell does this from a Dornish position where she is allowed to share power, and comments on how this threatens outsiders, and the way they seek to limit it. Arya, too, pushes back against the misogyny of the life path that's been chosen for her as a woman ("You'll marry a high lord and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights"/"That's not me"), the assumption by the assassins that she'd be happier as a courtesan, etc., etc. Catelyn has what Brienne calls a "woman's strength" of mental and emotional fortitude stronger than most of her male counterparts, and grows to realize it over the series (eg. reflecting on the fact that even though she's been told strategy is too hard for her, she can see the flaws in the war plans made by her son and his counselors). That Catelyn's sister has been more or less forced into her unfortunate position by her father's control over her body (forcing her to have an abortion to make her marketable to husbands)...

...And that's really only scratching the surface. I guess I was charitable when I supposed you only skimmed the books. I have no idea how you missed all this if you actually read them. It's right there on the pages. These books interrogate misogyny from literally countless directions.

(You did more or less say that - accusing Brienne of being part of a rape-avenger fantasy purely because she excels at fighting, and for no other reason whatsoever. If you think that, then every woman who engages in physical violence must logically be, too. Which is absolutely insane, and I'm glad you're backtracking from that position.)

So now that we've established that Brienne is not part of a rape-avenger fantasy (no one has even touched her) by any logic but the most spurious and absurd, and that the books interrogate misogyny on myriad levels, would you like to continue making yourself look like you've never read them?

[tuff-ghost.livejournal.com]

There's nothing inherently wrong with nefarious female villains or little girls who want to swordfight, but they aren't new or challenging ideas. I don't think they qualify as countless interrogations of misogyny by any stretch. The more minor/offhanded examples you've mentioned seem, relative to the great mass of sexist conventions they consider, to be commentary on the level of remarking that a hurricane's a bit breezy. Like, if those remarks weren't there, you'd have to acknowledge that GRRM is completely and unbelievably oblivious, but they are there, so he's just barely paying lip service.

Having been personally raped isn't a necessary part of the rape avenger fantasy - what about cases where the avenger is a brother/husband/mother/etc? The trope boils down to the idea of confronting the threat/experience of rape with violence (and violence != sports).

I am interested in Brienne's ugliness, and in Catelyn's having risen from the dead. I have doubts about the future of both characters' arcs, based on how limited GRRM has so far shown himself to be, but it would be great if they did go somewhere interesting.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

There's nothing inherently wrong with nefarious female villains or little girls who want to swordfight

This is a hopelessly reductionist interpretation of what I just stated about the female characters. I think they deserve a little more respect than that. Catelyn is not a villain - even Cersei, who is, is very nuanced - and Arienne is not a little girl who wants to swordfight. And though Arya is, she's also far more compex than that, too.

I'm not surprised this series seems to be "giving lip service" to the interrogation of misogyny when you're blowing off all of the female characters and their life experiences so tritely. Those remarks are there, in great multitude, and ignoring them to make your point does you no service.

[tuff-ghost.livejournal.com]

I can only go with my own impression of the female perspectives in the story. And that impression was dominated by sexy rape, sexy subjugation, blatantly male-geared sex scenes, blatantly male-geared LESBIAN sex scenes, and yup, tonnes of patriarchal wish fulfilment. I've just said I've not completely dismissed the female characters, just that I'm not hopeful about them based on what I've read so far.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

I know you're going by your own impression of them, that's obvious. I'm going by fact: I have them with me right now, and I've read them numerous times. "Dominated" by rape? There are a handful of mentions of rape - and highly realistic to his semi-historical setting - and they are always challenged, and exposed as misogynistic. Compared to literally hundreds of feminist sentiments and actions throughout the series. You say "blatantly male-geared LESBIAN sex-scenes" but there was literally one lesbian scene in the whole series. And a handful of mentioned of male homosexual sex acts as well (the smelly mercenaries Tyrion finds making out, etc). What is a "blatantly male-geared scene" anyhow? I've enjoyed just abotu every scene in the books; I'm not male.

Your "impressions" don't hold up to real examination of the stories, sorry. Exaggerating (as with the lesbian scene"s") makes your interpretation even more dubious. You sound like you're looking to find something in these books and you're going to find it whether or not it's really there. With respect, the gross short-selling of the female characters present, and their thoughts and agency, does not make me think that your interpretation is a particularly feminist one, either.

[tuff-ghost.livejournal.com]

What is a "blatantly male-geared scene" anyhow?

centering the male experience. I can enjoy stuff that's not meant for me too.

It's more that I was looking to find something in those books, and I didn't find it. I'm glad that you've noticed so many feminist tokens in the series, but for me, they never dispelled the feeling that I was reading an adolescent and very male-geared fantasy.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

I'm glad that you've noticed so many feminist tokens in the series

Feminist "tokens" eh. GRRM is a self-described feminist, and his adherence to the theory is thoroughly recognizable throughout. Yes, there's swords and blood and dragons. Yes, it's set in a semi-realistic fanta-historical sexist setting, but that setting is challenged and the structure of patriarchy exposed through just about every female voice and many of the male ones. Yes, there are attractive women and lesbians. There are also attractive men and gays.

"Tokens", "adolescent", "male-geared" fantasy? Honestly, it spoke volumes to (adult, female) me, and if you read GRRM's blog that's precisely what he intended. Your "feeling" is your "feeling" but it is not fact; the fact is that your "feeling" is largely unfounded and extremely condescending to his feminist fans and the strong, nuanced female characters in his books, to boot.

[tuff-ghost.livejournal.com]

extremely condescending to his feminist fans and the strong, nuanced female characters

No. That's nonsense and I don't buy it for a second. I can find works of fiction sexist and patriarchal independently of other women's readings; no one gets to say "that's sexist/feminist, and you're sexist/feminist if you disagree".

Again, I'm glad that you've found the series and fandom so feminist. Maybe when the next book comes out, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

No, it isn't nonsense, because you're not finding it sexist and patriarchal independently of other women's readings, you're finding it sexist and patriarchal independently and in spite of objective facts about the books.

And your reasoning for why you find it sexist is sexist. At the very least anti-feminist. But then, with statements like "male" experience (as if there are monoloithic experiences universal for all males that exclude all females) I'm not exactly shocked.

[tuff-ghost.livejournal.com]

"The female characters of ASoIaF are progressive" is not an objective fact. Nor is "progressive female characters make ASoIaF a progressive story".

The experiences of men don't need to be monolithic for works to appeal to them.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Your reasons for claiming that the female characters ASoIaF are not progressive and that ASoIaF is not a progressive story are in contradiction of objective fact. Your "impressions" and "feelings" are, and have been demonstrated to be, in contradiction to direct evidence from the text.

Though it is interesting that you've backed down from your original claims of misogyny in the text to simply "not progressive". I'll take it, frankly; given the tone of the discussion I think it highly unlikely that you'll admit error at this point, even though I've found a number of those.

You appealed to a "'male' experience"; this is by definition a gender essentialism. Not to mention GRRM has stated outright he writes for both sexes, from a feminist slant, and that these passages appeal to my experience as a female as well. You're just wrong on this one, comrade. And more than a little anti-feminist. Much more than I would have expected from your earlier claims. It does explain the belittling and flippant disregard for his female characters, though.

[tuff-ghost.livejournal.com]

your original claims of misogyny

You should scroll up and find those for me.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Its world is definitely misogynistic, and the closest it comes to examining/interrogating that is simplistic male rape-avenger fantasy.

The story doesn't need to be misogynistic itself to uphold misogynistic conventions. It contains a huge, glaring, complex subject, and fails to speak interestingly on that subject.

Well, that was easy.

Admittedly your accusations of misogyny in the text refer to the "world" and not the "story" but they are nevertheless there.

But I see we're at the point in the conversation where you leap desperately on whatever single sentence might give you any foothold back into the discussion. Better luck with the next one; this one didn't pan out for you.

[tuff-ghost.livejournal.com]

Yes, "admittedly" I didn't make the claim you said I did.

Better luck.

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

Uh, yeah... you did. And you've completely failed to address any of the points I made in the post, save, apparently "GRRM created a misogynistic world and upholds misogynistic conventions with his writing totes =/= accusation of misogyny, why no I'm not backpedalling at all, what does this look like to you".

Is "those are not the exact words I used, so there, even if the meaning is identical" really all you've got? Even in the face of flagrant gender essentialism and factual errors about the books your criticizing? Really?

[ariseishirou.livejournal.com]

centering the male experience

Ugh, I somehow missed this. Holy gender essentialism, batman. That's really, really unfortunate. Eugh.

[(Anonymous)]

There's nothing inherently wrong with nefarious female villains or little girls who want to swordfight, but they aren't new or challenging ideas. I don't think they qualify as countless interrogations of misogyny by any stretch. The more minor/offhanded examples you've mentioned seem, relative to the great mass of sexist conventions they consider, to be commentary on the level of remarking that a hurricane's a bit breezy.

Agreed.