fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1650 ]

[ SECRET POST #1650 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1650 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 207 secrets from Secret Submission Post #236.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 1 2 - omgiknowthatotherOP ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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Yes, if he said he didn't acknowledge Christians it doesn't seem people here at F!S would be so up in arms about it because a lot of people here seem to be of the liberal etc branch where I am not.

I don't mind either way since that seems to be the norm but I just find it interesting that if it was on the other foot it doesn't seem people would say 'he's being Christian-phobic' etc. That's not a word I know hehe.

'Christian-phobic' isn't a phrase I've ever heard either.

I think the difference here is that Christians are not a marginalised group - certainly not in the Western world anyway - so I'm not sure how relevant the comparison is.

Hmm yeah, that's true. But it certainly seems to be marginalized now a days. I say that because I have a degree in art so I was pretty much the minority and at school/work it doesn't seem very conservative-friendly. Which is funny since they like to complain they're the minority when in reality it's not true.

I don't think what you're talking about is marginalization so much as backlash against the unfair established order. Christians are still very much in control of most parts of the western world.

Hmm I wouldn't say Christian as much as Republicans since the church isn't really in control of anything.

Pfffbwahahahahaha.

Yes. Yes, it is. 'The Church' is not officially in charge of anything but when the vast majority of our politicians are Christian and many are very open about how their religion influences their views, especially in the Republican party.

"In God We Trust" is on our money, for fuck's sake. And it's sure not the Muslim God they're talking about.

I still see it as politics first and religion second. Some politicians are Christian but not all of them are, as you said. So really it has more to do with politics than anything.

Not some. Most. You can't even get elected President if you're not Christian.

And their religion influences their politics, if their religious beliefs say that gays don't deserve rights they're not going to neatly pack that way when they walk into the House of Congress.

Well some have from what I saw from the results of the NY pass on gay marriage.

Because their core belief is that it's okay to give gay people rights even if the Bible has some thoughts against it. Or they're doing it as a political ploy and shunting their beliefs aside in favor of power, which in this case isn't the worst thing in the world.

...ignore that when, I don't know what it's doing there.

I think I'd have to disagree. Perhaps it is challenged more nowadays than it used to be, I don't know, but I still wouldn't call Christians a minority group.

I've never heard of anyone refusing to acknowledge Christians in the same way many refuse to acknowledge, or "don't believe in" homosexuality.

I was pretty much the minority and at school/work it doesn't seem very conservative-friendly

To my mind, conservatism is more of a belief set or ideology, whereas your sexuality is a part of who you are, the very core of you (so I think/have experienced). You can (usually) choose what you believe, but not choose who you are. So, perhaps when you say your workplace is not very conservative-friendly, maybe what your colleagues are reacting to is conservative ideology and "values", rather than who you, a conservative, are as a person. Which just takes me back to thinking that it's not sticking to or having beliefs that is a problem, it's specifically what those beliefs are - and whether they are offensive and/or hurtful to those around you.

Hm I don't think my beliefs and ideologies are hurtful in any way since whenever someone says 'Christians are stupid' or 'Republicans are dumb' - those are very broad responses to what I've heard over the years but I'm surprised how quickly people respond that way when it seems they don't bother getting to know said groups.

It's the same for conservatives lumping liberals in the same group, but I think that's dumb as well since it doesn't show a need to understand why.

What I was meaning earlier is that it doesn't seem I can express myself via Christianity (which is what I'd consider myself first) or a conservative (my second and lesser known view) because it's not popular and deemed as wrong; which I don't agree with. That and people don't seem to think of me as such because of how I look.

I'm not saying what they did was right, but those were just insults. Compared to societal racism and homophobia, not to mention the current harm done by the conservative movement against minorities, it's hardly marginalization.

I think there are a lot of beliefs that aren't necessarily hurtful in themselves, but can be hurtful to some individuals. A lot of people are religious because they believe and because their faith is a positive thing in their lives. But there are also many people who have had to participate in faiths that didn't feel right to them because they were forced/pressured to, or who (like me) were raised in faiths that they later came to disagree with. When many people don't get to choose their initial religious experiences, it can turn out good or bad.

For example, I've talked to a lot of Christians who seem to see the idea that God sent Jesus to Earth to die for their sins as the ultimate example of God's love for them. The belief is positive for them. But I've also talked to a lot of ex-Christians for whom that belief triggered a lot of self-loathing.

I absolutely agree that being disrespectful towards people, and making large assumptions about them and their beliefs, is wrong. But while I've seen that type of behavior in discussions about faith and politics (from all sides), I've also encountered a lot of people who seemed to interpret any disagreement or offense at their beliefs as intolerance. I don't have to know an individual Christian very well to know that we'll likely differ in our beliefs on religion. That doesn't mean I think poorly of them, or even that I think poorly of their beliefs in general. And if someone does believe something that I see as offensive and hateful, like homophobic beliefs, I'm going to have an issue with that no matter what their excuse is.

Are you fucking serious?

Love,

a non-Christian

Where do you live? I've grown up in KS and it's surrounded with liberals, it's not a wholly red state as most believe.

I don't want to speak of politics all through this thread but that's what I've seen from my viewpoint. It appears you think otherwise.

I live in California.

Look, I was kind of rude in my previous comment and I apologize. I'll be honest, you are so incredibly privileged as a Christian in the United States that you're blind to it. I'll give you a little tiny example. Let's say it's late November and you're talking to an acquaintance. Maybe someone you like, but don't know too well. How easy is it to ask, purely out of good intentions, just to make a little conversation "hey, what are you doing for Christmas this year?".

If that person you're talking to is like me, there's that little moment when you have to make a decision on how to respond that that. Do I just say "not much" and change the subject? Do I say "nothing, because I don't celebrate Christmas"? Is this person the type that's going to let it go with a shrug, or are they going to start in with the personal questions about why? I have had people actually tell me I should celebrate Christmas, because it's a secular and not a religious holiday, REALLY.

This is such a little tiny thing, but it's an example of a thousand little things non-Christians experience in a majority Christian country. Unless you're wearing clothes that explicitly show that you're a member of another religion (ie, a hijab), everyone assumes that you're Christian. In a lot of situations, it's easier to not make a fuss and point out that you're not, and when you do say "well, no, I didn't go to church this Easter, because I'm not a Christian", there's a pretty good chance the questioner is not going to let it lie, and will start asking intrusive questions.

Overall, it's not a huge deal in my life, but it's needling, every time it happens, a reminder that I am not like everyone else, my beliefs are weird, the majority of this country has a connection that I cannot share. And it's really hurtful when politicians say things like being of my beliefs cannot be real Americans (thanks, George HW Bush) and when you read a poll that says that your minority group is the least trusted in the entire country.

So I'm sorry I was rude, but the idea that Christians are marginalized is bizarre beyond belief.

Well I say that because of my experiences. In my family I'm considered the 'black sheep' because I'm not liberal and the like. So I've had to deal with the opposite of what others have from their family. So I understand.

I don't assume most people are Christian or even Republican (conservative/liberal is different, I think since they can exist in both parties) because it's been obvious since I've hit high school that's not the case. I don't see myself as privileged at all.

If someone said they didn't celebrate Christmas I'd ask why because I'd be curious. I don't care if people celebrate Christmas or not. For me, even if it's not about Christ (for some people I know it's not) then it's about family and friends.

So if you said 'I don't because of 'x'' I'd say 'oh, that's cool.' I think it's rather silly for someone to tell you you need/should celebrate something.

And it's okay, I accept your apology. I was just speaking from my own experiences. I can understand the needling feeling. It happens no matter where you are because we don't all believe the same thing.

If someone said they didn't celebrate Christmas I'd ask why because I'd be curious.

I understand, but you must understand that this gets tiresome to those of us who go through this questioning process constantly. That is what it is to be part of a marginalized group - you're constantly being questioned on why you're not part of the mainstream.

Upon reading some of your other responses, I'm not sure what you know what other people mean by marginalization. Some guy in Kansas - a majority Christian state - saying that Christians are dicks isn't marginalizing Christians. One person can't do that. It takes a whole society to marginalize minority groups. I get that you were offended, but you weren't marginalized.

OTOH, I am marginalized when I know that despite any other qualifications I might have, I would have a tough time running for elected office because I am not a Christian. There is one person in federal elected office who openly shares my beliefs.

If you live in the United States and are a Christian, you are privileged over all other religious groups, period. Your complaints that someone was mean to you do not compare to the society-wide exclusion that the minority religious groups experience.

I'm assuming you're Muslim or something like that since you've said your beliefs aren't well liked in America? If so, why not take it as an opportunity to show why you believe what you believe and don't see it as a constant attack?

I know the reasoning why if that's true but there's always a chance to create a better understanding of something that doesn't get a lot of good press. For example I'm part of the gothic culture. A lot of Christians don't understand it. I get a lot of questions and am told what I'm doing is not Christian. But whenever I'm asked questions I try to help them understand that it's really okay.

It's not the same as religion, I know, but I know a bit about what you go through.

I didn't mean to say marginalized in the comments above. Sorry for that.

And no, it's not just about someone is being mean to me that prompted my responses. It's the fact that if I say I'm Christian I get a lot of bad looks and this is in a supposedly red state. There are more smaller religous groups than Christians that I've encountered. Such as Buddism, Muslim, wiccan and others.

I'm actually not Muslim. I'm an atheist.

I'm sorry - eh, wait, what am I saying, I'm not sorry you occasionally get people questioning your motives. I'm glad, because maybe it will help you be a little understanding of what it's like to be a minority.

I see.

I don't understand your sarcasm because I just said that I know what you feel like, even if it's not on the same level.

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13chapters.livejournal.com - 2011-07-10 23:56 (UTC) - Expand

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twilightedge.livejournal.com - 2011-07-10 23:57 (UTC) - Expand

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seiberwing.livejournal.com - 2011-07-10 23:53 (UTC) - Expand

This. Thank you. So much of this. Growing up in a small conservative Midwestern town and being an atheist was basically hell, particularly at Christmas. Somewhere I still have a little card someone handed to me at my library job asking, "If Santa's naughty or nice list was God's list of who went to hell and who went to heaven, which list would you be on? Come to Jesus, and celebrate the true reason behind Christmas!" I also had small children ask me what church I went to; when I told them I didn't go to church, they'd give me a horrified look and tell me I was going to hell. These kids were maybe seven or eight, tops. And they were already convinced that everyone but them and their congregation were going to hell.

I could go on forever, but you already know. So thank you, anyway, for saying exactly what I was thinking and feeling.

If Christians seem to be marginalized in the arts, it's most likely because there's more acceptance of actual minorities. And if there's a lack of good will toward conservatives in those places, well, all you have to do is look at the news to see why.

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