[ SECRET POST #1670 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1670 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Going to be short posts this week, LJ being down half the week means less secrets total, sorry about that.

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 204 secrets from Secret Submission Post #239.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[subarashiine.livejournal.com]

Does anyone highly recommend this series? It looks interesting...

[(Anonymous)]

i have friends who love it and worship it, but they made me read some (i only read a few chapters) and tbh i was bored by it.

(plus personally it kinda irritates me that a woman in fandom who writes primarily slash, when it comes to original she writes a series that is dominated by straight [mostly white? i know the mc is but in this case that's as far as my knowledge extends] men. 'cause especially when it comes to dragon stories, men are really underrepresented.)

[(Anonymous)]

You have to remember the time period's very conservative attitude, though. The very few women they have in the fleet are treated with shock and disgust by the general public, and yes it's comparable to the "rum, sodomy, and the lash" Navy but I think putting slash in there would feel token or fan-pandering. As for the whiteness, yes, the MC is white, because the POV corps is British. There are plenty of characters from other countries/ethnicities later in the series, one who becomes a major character is Chinese.

[(Anonymous)]

i know the time period and setting, ty. maybe adding dragons AND more equality/representation would be too much, but she chose to write a time period and setting that was straight male-dominated. and whatever, that's an author's right, but it's still a choice.

[(Anonymous)]

And she chose to showcase how one man who is very much a product of his time is slowly stripped from his prejudice and misconceptions.

yes, it's the author's choice to write the story she wants. It's a bit entitled to think otherwise no? The criticism is basically "well, I think she should've written a different story".

You can't really fault an author for setting their story in a time that interests her. It's how she treats it that matters and in this case the era's problems are not only shown, they're also discussed by the main characters who try to be vehicles of change.

+1

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for explaining it better than I could word it.

[darlas-mom.livejournal.com]

I think there's kind of a flaw in this argument, anon. There aren't real dragons, so it's not a real time period. When you choose the when/where setting of your FANTASY books with FANTASY creatures, it's pretty much for the aesthetics (e.g, the clothing and decor and landscapes you want to invoke in people's minds when they're reading your story). Adding in the gender/racial/sexual/whatever politics that reflect "back then" (even though the dragons pretty much mean there's not a real "then" for it to "back" to) is also a choice the author is making (though perhaps not a conscious one). That's what's being complained about, I think, and I think it's a valid criticism.

[(Anonymous)]

but that's not the point. the point isn't to just take the aesthetic and then write a completely fictional world. the point is to take one single difference and say what if.

Under your reasoning every single piece of fiction has to be set in a world that's egalitarian and inclusive and multicoloured (though I doubt you'd ever dare criticise a work where all the characters were black or east-asian).

Even though she is using the era as a setting for raising a multitude of social issues that's not good enough because her main character is a white male?

Sorry, I don't count that as valid criticism

[darlas-mom.livejournal.com]

Actually, by my standard, the author's still making a choice.

Seriously, that's all.

If she wants to make a point, whatever. I don't care. But that's never the justification I hear. The justification everyone throws around is "but that's how it was back then," and the fact of the matter is, a fantasy world only needs as much verisimilitude as the author wants it to need.
I practically never hear anyone complain that the people in medieval/feudal European settings are too well-fed, healthy or hygienic (even though in most movie adaptations of same, they usually are). And when an author chooses not to have any rape in their stories, I never hear anyone complain that that's unrealistic for the time period (even though it's technically unrealistic for just about every damn time period you have available to you, save for maybe the distant future). People can choose to gloss over any unpleasantness in their fantasy settings they want, and most audiences will go ahead and roll with it.

The author made a choice. Maybe she had good reasons, maybe she didn't; I haven't read it personally (hence my not really directly criticizing the work in question, so much as the "that's how it was back then" defense, which is my major pet peeve in fantasy).

I have no argument for "using the era as a setting for raising a multitude of social issues," especially for a work I haven't read. But "that's how it was back then" is a downright willfully stupid defense.

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

I haven't read it personally (hence my not really directly criticizing the work in question, so much as the "that's how it was back then" defense, which is my major pet peeve in fantasy).

Well, there's your problem. It's not a 'fantasy world' in the sense that she just made it up and took inspiration from the era. It's period-accurate Napoleonic War era, but with dragons dropped into it. Dragons are the only concession to fantasy (and firebreathing/poison-spitting/divine wind stuff, but that's still dragon related). Novik works hard to make it as period-accurate as possible, including the ideals of the time and how those would relate to talking sentient dragons used as an airforce. Lawrence himself is actually fairly liberal for his time, and the dragon abolition ideas that Temeraire puts together are considered ridiculously radical.

'That's how it was back then' is entirely the point of the series. Besides the Temeraire/Lawrence epic bromance.

[(Anonymous)]

If you only read a few chapters than you would have no idea that the heart of the story is the love between Laurence and Temeraire.

[(Anonymous)]

I enjoy the hell out of it, the worldbuilding and the characters (as well as the historical aspect of it all, it's pretty accurate except for the dragons). Personally I was never bored by it, but a friend of mine found the battle scenes dull. All-in-all, at least check it out from the library.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, I personally highly recommend it. The premise is: what would the Napoleonic wars have been like if the different countries had dragons that they used as an air force? The characters and the story are very good. You get a bit of everything: fighting, politics, friendship, bits of romance. I'm very bad at reccing things, so I'll just leave it at "it's awesome!".

The only person I know who didn't like it was my dad. Basically, he didn't like Temeraire (who pretty much co-stars with the narrator as the main characters) since Temeraire is prone to asking uncomfortable questions and my dad doesn't like the "childish but wise" trope.

I don't really understand critics like the anon above though: It's historical fantasy so yes, dubious social mores and all that. The books do address these questions though (and centres around them more as the series goes on, it's very subtle in the first book as our narrator is a very straight-laced man who gets his eyes opened bit by bit). there actually are a few strong and interesting female characters who are central to the story, but it is set during the Napoleonic wars so don't expect women to rule the world or gay romance (or anything but strictly regulated and parent approved, pre-arranged romance) to be an accepted thing. The social issues level they're at is debating abolishing slavery so... as for the characters being mainly white. well. see above.

Arguably though, the dragons are very much part of the main cast and that's whole different species.

The historical is almost as important as the fantasy in these novels. Yes, she could have set it in an entirely fictional world with 21st century values and made the main character gay but now you're complaining that the author didn't write a completely different story with a completely different set of characters...

[(Anonymous)]

Only if you like yaoi/slash subtext between a man and a dragon. At first I couldn't figure out what was bugging me with this book then I realized it was because temeraire and lawrence were always cuddling and acting lovely dovey. At first it was cute but then it got to be really annoying to read. Then I found out the author wrote fanfiction in the past and I just dropped the damn thing completely.

[(Anonymous)]

Lawrence and Temeraire were treated as partners throughout the whole series. The books use the fairly common trope of a dragon and its rider being soulmates or some other equivalent. Not to mention that Temeraire is absolutely massive. You're saying that Lawrence can't lay on Temeraire's front leg without it immediately being subtext? At no point was slash ever implied any of the times they were in physical contact.

I don't think it's the author who's been reading too much fanfic, if you see slash in any relationship that's even a little closer than just basic friends >.>

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

You're saying that Lawrence can't lay on Temeraire's front leg without it immediately being subtext?

Yes. Any other dragon and any other human I'd agree with you but those two? Yes.