fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1690 ]

[ SECRET POST #1690 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1690 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[The Birdcage]

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03. [repeat]

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04.

[Swan Princess]

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05.

[Yugioh]

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06.

[d.gray-man/katekyo hitman reborn]

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07. [ns]

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08.

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09.

[Natsume Yuujinchou]

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10.

[deus ex]

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11.

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12.

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13.

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14.

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15.

[Beelzebub]

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16.

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17.

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18.

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19.

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20.

[Leverage]

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21.

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22.

[Jon Richardson]

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23.

[Suburban Knights / TGWTG]

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24.

[A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones]

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25. [posted twice]

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26.

[MST3K -- Pumaman]

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27.

[Switched at Birth]

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28.

[Risen: Dark Waters]

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29.

(Family Ties, Out of Practice, Everwood)

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30.

[David Mitchell and Lee Mack]

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31.

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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

32. [SPOILERS for Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy]

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33. [SPOILERS for Harry Potter]

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34. [SPOILERS for AtLA]

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35. [SPOILERS for Portal 2]

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36. [SPOILERS for Rise of the Planet of the Apes]

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37. [SPOILERS for Fringe]

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38. [SPOILERS for Puella Magi Madoka Magica]

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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]

39. [TRIGGER WARNING for child abuse]

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40. [TRIGGER WARNING for self-harm]

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41. [TRIGGER WARNING for rape]

[Rihanna]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #241.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Her. We have had this discussion.

(And if you want to actually be grammatical, she.)

Can we have one Grell secret without trans wank? Just one?

I think you misfired, you probably meant to respond to the person who called Grell "him".

nope it was meant for the person trying to be all ~but it's HERRR~ when all we have are shoddy translations and no proof grell is trans lol, in other words shut up & let people say whatever they want

yup so we established it could also be him :D

I don't think Grell feels like a female trapped in a man's body. I just think he likes calling himself a woman because he's eccentric that way.

Exactly WHY does a supernatural, non-mortal being have to have gender-identity issues? S/he can do whatever s/he wants.

Why is it that people will rail and rail and rail about visibility and representation for gay characters, and at the slightest indication will claim a [male] character is gay and will nail anyone who tries to write them as straight or interested in a woman to the wall, but they will make every single bullshit excuse their little fingers can squeeze out to keep from acknowledging genderqueer or, God forbid, trans characters. "Because he's eccentric that way"? Give me a fucking break.

If the evidence toward Grell being trans was switched with evidence toward Grell being gay, I'll bet you anything people would hold that information like a holy truth--as opposed to vehemently arguing whether "I want a sex change" really means someone is trans or not. Tell me, would you strain to find a way that "I want to have sex with men" could mean anything other than X character is gay?

You are all a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

Maybe if it was someone else, I could see it. I just personally don't believe that Grell thinks he should have been born female. Drag queens call themselves female, but most of them don't actually want a sex change. I feel like Grell is the same way. Can you not automatically assume that I'm nitpicking because "Muuuhh, no, he CAN'T be trans?"

And if we're setting aside the "trans" argument, then there's a shitton of evidence that he's gay, or at least bi. I STILL think he just does whatever the fuck he wants.

In a character interview, Grell says she wants a sex change

Oh? Where is this interview?

I had gotten it from here a while ago: http://bleachasylum.com/threads/14768-Kuroshitsuji-Character-Guide-English-Scanlation-(Part-2) but the file has since been taken down

If you google "kuroshitsuji character guide" you'll probably eventually find an active link

All right. Thanks for looking. :)

Re: Does he HAVE to be trans?

(Anonymous) - 2011-08-20 06:27 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Does he HAVE to be trans?

saiika-von-maou.livejournal.com - 2011-08-20 06:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Does he HAVE to be trans?

(Anonymous) - 2011-08-20 06:42 (UTC) - Expand

As someone has already said, Grell stated that she wants a sex change. But everyone can feel free to continue making justifications as to how "I want a sex change" doesn't mean Grell wishes she'd been born female, and how she's not actually transgendered, she's just ~eccentric.

Regardless, it just proves that representation is only an issue if the fangirls can get their rocks off to it. If it's representation for a group fans don't find attractive, well, that group can just go fuck themselves.

I didn't know that before, and I read Grell's personality very differently from "I want to be a woman." How do I explain this...? I felt like, as a supernatural being, Grell was beyond gender-identity issues, if that makes any sense. What bothered me, mainly, was that people seemed to be saying, "Oh, Grell calls himself 'she' all the time, so that must mean he's transgendered." Why did she have to be, just because of that?

But, as I have acknowledged, I stand corrected. I was rather pleased with that interview; she's still eccentric and does whatever the fuck she wants, transgendered or not.

Because the author says so.

Education: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/emerwen/47.jpg

in an obscure interview which not all fans are aware of.

and people may, in fact, decide to ignore it even if they know about it because they only count the manga or anime as canon. just like some harry potter fans may - and do - ignore all rowling's post-series interviews, including the now famous "dumbledore is gay!" one, because from their pov those are not canon.

so until that interview is published in a manga volume and - just to be on the safe side - that volume is translated into english or it's in some other way stated in the manga that grell is trans, it's not omghorribletransphobiawrong of people in the english speaking fandom to use male pronouns when they talk about grell.

If the author writes it (or speaks it) it is canon.

I shouldn't even have to explain that to you, or anyone else.

who gives a shit about some minor character in a manga and people who might not have read that one single line in a hard-to-find interview that not everyone knows about

why not get worked up over real transwank in the real world and actually make a fucking difference

Because transphobia and the like in fictional works are often a reflection of the real world? In the same way that fandom is also a microcosm of the rest of society?

In the same way that fandom is also a microcosm of the rest of society?

Using that logic, the world is a place where most people support gay couples openly. The society is also dominated by women and there's always a shock when a famous person turns out to be a man.

I probably didn't explain my point well enough, sorry! For sure, it's not a perfect correlation (between fandom and offline society, if you will). But by the same token, "fandom" at large composes a vast web of different sorts of "mini-cultures" that tend to accumulate different/specific sorts of people and sets of beliefs. There's not really an easy way to generalize about it, though.

What I was trying to get at is that everyone who participates in online, fandom-specific discussion or culture or whatever you want to call it, is also a person that interacts with what I'll have to awkwardly differentiate by saying outside society. I don't know....presumably, if you have beliefs in one of those two sectors, you'll still have them in the other. :-/

In this instance, it concerns disavowing a character's stated (albeit, I'll admit, in an obscure reference-y book) gender identity. Maybe transphobia is a word that's too weighted to use in an overarching way for all of the people who have objected to Grell's description as a female. I guess it's kind of hard to avoid the temptation to be biting and brief and to use excess generalization on F!S. :s

but it's a minor character
and the only reference to grell being trans is ONE LINE in an OBSCURE INTERVIEW that NOT EVERYBODY HAS READ, so it's ridiculous to assume that everyone who calls grell a "he" is transphobic and misgendering on purpose

+++++

using your reflection metaphor, and using "you" as a general reference to fandom social justice wank as a whole

all you're doing is throwing stones into a pond to distort the reflection so you can't see it anymore when what you SHOULD be doing is attempting to get rid of the thing that's casting the reflection

i'm just sick of people treating minorities of any kind as causes to be fought instead of actual humans to be helped idk, like minorities are some kind of unicorns among the rest of society instead of just people who happen to be part of a minority

Sorry, you're right: I was overbearing in my use of the term for everybody. That wasn't fair. And the interview itself, too, to be fair, is also awfully obscure.

That said, though, I don't see why it makes a difference that the character in question is a minor one. Do you mean that it would be worth more to talk about if it were a main/major character we were talking about? (I'm honestly curious! :) Not trying to provoking or anything.)

I don't quite understand your comment about minorities as unicorns, though. I didn't suggest anything to that effect, I think.

I'm afraid I'm a little confused on the rest of your argument. I'm afraid we may sort of be butting heads over something that we more or less agree on, but I'm kind of unsure of exactly what you're saying. Definitely, the priority is to help spur acceptance of very real people who happen to be trans, so that they can go on and function happily and well with just as much chance of getting along as any other person, without being dragged down by discrimination or prejudice. From my understanding, that's what you're referring to when you say, you SHOULD be doing is attempting to get rid of the thing that's casting the reflection? (Correct me if I've misunderstood) My point, though, or what I was trying to say, is that points that people argue in fandom can bleed over into their interactions in the "real" world. Obviously, there are all kinds of different people and points and objections that have been voiced in the, erm, history of Grell-related wank. There are people who just stubbornly don't want to change a use of pronouns because they don't want to, in much the same way some people stopped watching, say, The Today Show for a little while when the main anchors changed - not because they suddenly disliked it, but the change was uncomfortable and weird to get used to. I have family members who somewhat unwittingly used this excuse when I asked them to change their use of pronouns for someone very dear to me, who had recently come out as trans. They hemmed and hawed, but it basically boiled down to the fact that they were surprised, uncomfortable with the new idea, and didn't quite know how to react to it. In the end, they realized that they didn't have any concrete reason to stubbornly use the pronoun with which the person no longer related, and they eventually realized, "This is the person's wish, so I'll respect it." So in my case, that turned out just fine. But there are also people who make take their discomfort and run with it. There may be no statable, arguable reason not to, in this example, switch pronouns, but for people who stubbornly allow their discomfort to grow, and, perhaps, seek a reason to justify it (please see next comment!)

(I think this is where a lot of anti-gay justification comes from: people get freaked out, don't know how to cope with the idea and how uncomfortable it may make them, so instead of simply saying so, people search for or create arguments to back up their feelings, whether these are based in religion, as in the case of, "God hates X. X is a sin," or in pseduo-science, as with, "Studies have shown that X people/people with X lead unhappier lives, and are more likely than Y people to commit suicide, abuse drugs and alcohol, get diseases, etc." (as if X is the cause of this, rather than a number of complex and interlocking factors, many of which are external) AND SO ON. *gasp* :P ) That's just sort of my feeling about the subject, though, and my hypothesis about a lot of people's reactions to ideas like homosexuality, transsexuality, etc. And I think it's concurrently not outrageous to suggest that some girl or boy who objects to a character's gender identity as polarized from their physical sex, might end up taking that on/further in "real" life.
There's obviously, as I've said, a huge swath of fans with different viewpoints, and not everyone is trying to maintain that Grell is a manmanman just to continue his fanfiction slash affair with Sebastian. All I'm trying to say is that it's so easy for that to bleed into real life, and that can end up hurting real people. As in the case of the dear friend of mine I mentioned earlier, it was only a matter of a silly word change. In some ways, it's really no more than an argument of semantics. But just changing a stupid word can also go leaps and bounds in making that person feel supported and accepted.

I apologize for the HUGE word vomit! ><

Sorry, you're right: I was overbearing in my use of the term for everybody. That wasn't fair. And the interview itself, too, to be fair, is also awfully obscure.

i hadn't even heard about it until i finally checked out the hordes of wank on every kuroshitsuji secret ever, considering it was never mentioned at all in canon

That said, though, I don't see why it makes a difference that the character in question is a minor one. Do you mean that it would be worth more to talk about if it were a main/major character we were talking about?

i meant like, since grell is a minor character her issues aren't really that relevant to the overarching plot so she won't be fleshed out and might not be as popular so people don't see the need to look for obscure interviews to find that one line that defines her as trans

(I'm honestly curious! :) Not trying to provoking or anything.)

it's cool bro i'm hard to provoke even if i do swear like a fucking sailor

I don't quite understand your comment about minorities as unicorns, though. I didn't suggest anything to that effect, I think.

not you specifically, people in general

like treating a male-to-female transperson like a weird third gender instead of the female that they actually are

I apologize for the HUGE word vomit! ><

i was basically saying

correcting prejudice is great and you should do it whereever you encounter it, but you shouldn't treat people like transphobic assholes just because they might not know a FICTIONAL CHARACTER is trans and i think people should channel that energy into the real world and helping real people instead of whining on a f!s thread

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1690 ]

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Does he HAVE to be trans?

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(Part 1) ^^;

(Part 2)

Re: (Part 1) ^^;