[ SECRET POST #1714 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1714 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 09 pages, 201 secrets from Secret Submission Post #245.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

I don't think Sansa-hate is inherently misogyny. A lot of it has to do with the fact that she did initial betray her own blood because of idiot Joffrey. Granted, she's young, but she has a lot of redemption to do (and wisdom to gain) before I'd like here anywhere near the throne.

[lunelight.livejournal.com]

I don't think Sansa-hate is inherently misogyny

I think it easily can be when she's being loathed for stuff she did while male characters are frequently given the Draco in Leather Pants (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants) treatment even after doing much worse than Sansa, and out of overt malice. Most of the stuff Sansa still gets criticized for was done out of plain 13-year-old naivete (for example, she inadvertently gave Cersei information that helped Cersei cause a lot of bad things because she still believed the court was noble).

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

THIS. A lot of male characters make a lot worse decisions than Sansa (PAGING RENLY AND STANNIS AND NED AND ROBB) and yet, they don't get the same level of hate that Sansa does. Female characters are held to a higher standard.

[(Anonymous)]

I was just going to say this. Ned doesn't cop nearly as much flack for his bad decisions as Cat does.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

For serious. I have been doing a series of metas on Cat of womenlovefest, so I'm in an especially Cat-defending and stanning mood right now, and like her bad decisions don't have nearly the impact that Ned's do. And most of the consequences are things she could not have foreseen whereas Ned's decision to let Cersei flee was pretty obviously going to end badly.

[fadeinthewash.livejournal.com]

To be fair, 3/4 of the male characters you named are now dead and gone, and we didn't even get POV chapters for 3 of them, either.

[(Anonymous)]

Just thought I should point out Sansa is 11 in the books. So yeah. What the hell would a sheltered 11 year old girl know about courtly intrigue?

[demeure.livejournal.com]

+100.

[lunelight.livejournal.com]

...you are totally right! I forgot they aged her up for the show. So, yeah, point stands even more.

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

Yes, this so much. I will never understand why the fandom loves Jaime and hates Cersei. He's just as bad as she is, if not worse considering the whole murdering the man he had sworn an oath to serve thing, and yet he is loved while she is hated.

[(Anonymous)]

Have you read the books? I do have issues with how Jamie is presented as an increasingly decent character while Cersei is being turned into a power-hungry monster, but killing Aerys was morally justified.

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

I've read the first book. In my mind, it would have been morally justified for almost anyone else to do it. Aerys was a horrible king who needed to be killed. However, Jaime took an oath to serve him. Thus, Jaime being the one to kill him was not okay, particularly because he did it only to put himself ahead not because of any desire to do good.

I know that later on, GRRM tries to redeem Jaime but doesn't do the same with Cersei. That pisses me off, actually. She's the one who is more sympathetic, considering she is a woman in a society that treats women horribly and is stuck in a marriage with an abusive husband who flaunts his cheating in front of her.

[wake-the-dragon.livejournal.com]

Thus, Jaime being the one to kill him was not okay, particularly because he did it only to put himself ahead not because of any desire to do good.

I know you haven't read the other books, but no he didn't. And it didn't really put him ahead; people hate him for what he did.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

I don't want to spoil you, but you'll find out more about Jaime's motivation for killing Aerys when you get to Book 3. Even without that revelation, though, I'd say trying to kill an innocent child is a far worse crime than breaking an oath to serve a murdering madman.

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

Okay, I can still believe that, but I still believe that it should have been someone else killing Aerys. Yes, there is that too. And Jaime is the one responsible for trying to murder Bran. He may have thought he was doing what Cersei wanted, but he was the one who did the act. So in that case, it makes him worse than her on that count too.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean to say Cersei was responsible for Bran's fall, just that I don't think killing Aerys was the worst of Jaime's crimes.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

I don't think Sansa-hate is inherently misogyny. A lot of it has to do with the fact that she did initial betray her own blood because of idiot Joffrey.

All Sansa did was tell Cersei that Ned was sending her and Arya back to Winterfell. She didn't know about the incest or about Ned's plans to have Cersei arrested, and she did everything she could to save Ned's life. I think it's ridiculous (and yes, misogynistic) that more people seem to blame her for Ned's death than they do Littlefinger, Ned (who basically doomed himself by telling Cersei what he knew), or even Joffrey.

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

Ehm, not quite. There are other instances where Sansa chooses Joffrey over her family. She pretty much backs up Joffrey with the whole Arya/butcher boy thing to, which had rather grave consequences.

I don't blame her for Ned's death - Ned was pretty good at getting himself killed. I don't think anyone could have saved him by the time Sansa tried.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

She pretty much backs up Joffrey with the whole Arya/butcher boy thing to, which had rather grave consequences.

She said she didn't remember what happened. How was that backing up Joffrey?

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

Because she clearly did remember what happened and could have saved a lot of trouble, perhaps even the boy's life, by fessing up to the truth.

But she feared Joffrey might not want to marry her then, so she kept her mouth shut at the expense of the boy and her own sister, and in the end doomed her own wolf for the mistake.

[amarra-jade.livejournal.com]

Mmm, I still disagree. "I don't remember" isn't backing anyone. Why would she think saying she didn't remember would keep her in Joffrey's good graces? IMO, if that was really what she was going for, she would have said Arya was the liar. I think she was just scared and thought "I don't remember" was the safest thing to say. She couldn't possibly have known Cersei would demand Lady's death, and Mycah was killed before Arya and Sansa were brought before Robert and Cersei, so Sansa had nothing to do with that.

[lunelight.livejournal.com]

The incident with the butcher's boy ties back into her naivete - she had no reason to believe that would end as badly as it did. She did back Joffrey over Arya, but she was 11, he was her crush, she had no reason to think anyone would get killed over it, and she paid for it almost instantly. I just think it's a little unfair to call it "betrayal".

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, honest question here: How much more redemption does Sansa need before you forgive her for a single mistake she made while she was 11 years old, naive and had no idea what the consequences of her actions would be? Does she need to have her fingers flayed before she's suffered "enough" for her betrayal?

The Sansa and Cat hate is misogynistic to me because all the characters in the books make stupid, bone-headed mistakes with a lot of them suffering and dying for it, but it's the female characters who continue to get the most vitriolic hate thrown at them for it.

Anyway, as far as the books are concerned, Sansa has already learned more than enough about trusting people and the truth of politics, and with Littlefinger's help, she's going to become a lot smarter and be a pretty powerful potential player in the game.

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

As I said above, it's not a single mistake. There are other instances where Sansa chooses Joffrey over her family. She pretty much backs up Joffrey with the whole Arya/butcher boy thing to, which had rather grave consequences.

I don't think she needs to have her fingers flayed at all - but I think she needs a hell of a lot of growing up to do before she would be fit to rule a kingdom, which was the point of the secret.

To me, I didn't quite like her and she seemed like a spoiled brat who pined for the big city while considering all that is Winterfell and her family to be inferior.

I think we saw change at the end, and her telling Joffrey that he will die for what he did after she sees her dad's head on a stake, was an important turning point in her character. There's potential there. I'm talking TV-verse, so I don't know how she evolves in the books. Maybe she already has, in which case I'll gladly take back my words. But TV-verse: she's not there yet.

Oh, and I have nothing against Cat. I think she's one of the most level-headed people in there.

[fadeinthewash.livejournal.com]

I don't hate Sansa, though I have a kind of general disapproval of her-- not because of the mistakes she made, but because of her persistent too-dumb-to-live mentality. 11 years old is very young, but it doesn't imply stupidity. I hated reading Sansa gloss over what a dumb prick Joffrey was, and even once she's disillusioned of Joff, she still clings to the fairytale 'true knights are good and pretty and true and pretty and...'

Thankfully she is finally catching up to reality.

(Many of the other dumbass male characters we never get POV chapters for. I'd reckon there'd be more hate of them if we spent pages and pages in their heads watching their dumb thoughts. ...before they all die from their stupidity.)