[ SECRET POST #1756 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1756 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 165 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

The kind of goofs you're describing really has more to do with how much consideration a person gives to their writing, not how well-versed they are in the language, and as such it applies to native speakers as well as ESL-ers. Of course we're striving for communicability, but the thing is that the ESL speaker's experience in fandom isn't an all or nothing deal. It's not only the utterly unintelligible slobs who receive the kind of treatment the secret maker is alluding to: much of the time a person's grasp of English will reach a level where it's completely passable for everyday conversation, but is still quite noticeably flawed, and these imperfections will be targeted by the pedants. Depending on the person, it can easily take more than the barest amount of effort in order to go from this level of mastery to the next.

If their writing is merely riddled with spelling mistakes and lack of punctuations, the problem isn't their English, it's that they just don't care. That at least is easy to deal with. It sounds simple to say that you should just master the basics of the language and that will be enough, but the reality is quite different. ESL-ers generally run into problems with sentence structures and words-usage, which greatly impede communicability, but these issues are not easily overcome.

SA

[(Anonymous)]

That is actually my entire point.

To clarify, if someone doesn't point out the fact that they're ESL, then we won't know, and the grammar commentary will end up being harsh because we'll simply assume that they're lazy native speakers, not struggling ESL posters (or posters who otherwise have a legitimate reason for not knowing how the language functions). If we did know, then most decent people would be able to ignore the overabundance of flaws.

However, on the other hand, you can't just say that we have to forgive all ESLers because learning a language is hard, and fandom is a hobby. Yes, it's hard, and yes, it's a hobby. The point is that both sides need to meet each other halfway. The native speakers can't be completely lenient on ESLers who just don't want to make an effort to get the basics right (and we're talking about the very basics here), and the native speakers can't be harsh towards absolutely everyone.

Yes, pedants exist, but they'll always exist because the internet makes people socially stupid. However, not all native speakers will descend on you like vultures so long as you make an effort to be conscious of how language works - or at least display an interest in attempting to fit in with the culture of the community, language included. To worry about the pedants is a lot like worrying about the SJ warriors: not even the majority of fandom is like that unless you go out of your way to do very silly things that piss off a community enough to side with them.

As for sentence structures, it's understandable that this would impede communicability, but I'm not sure how many of the kinds of pedants we're talking about actually harp on that kind of thing. Perhaps it's prevalent in your fandoms, but it's certainly not in mine. The pedants in mine focus completely on the little details unless the sentence structure leaves them completely confused by what you're talking about.

The short of it is, we've been talking about both. The anon detailing a mastery over the basics of language was only talking about the basics of language, you're talking about more complex structures and an overall mastery, and I'm talking about a mix of both and general etiquette expected from (and the perceptions of) a native speaker.