fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1756 ]

[ SECRET POST #1756 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1756 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 165 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Forgive me if I've missed the point, but from what I can tell, the anon is not asking for a mastery of the English language so much as a marked attempt at mastering the basics of the English language. In order to communicate with an audience that speaks the language fluently, this would be a given to do, not an option only the privileged can take. Assuming you're ESL, it would be like me attempting to write in your native language but misspelling or misusing every single word in every single sentence I write. After a while, it would probably be unreadable to you as well, right?

To clarify a little more, English speakers can understand and forgive you if you use your instead of you're. English speakers do that all the time too, and we know that some rules are just incredibly complicated. However, there's other rules -- like periods need to go after every sentence, you need to capitalize every name and the first word of every sentence, and so forth -- that are very simple and remain consistent. We also don't expect you to know the dictionary, but we do expect you to spell out the word you and spell simple, common words like person or easily correctly. This is just so everyone can understand you and can grasp your point without working too hard to decipher what you're saying. Like you said, fandom is a hobby, but it's a hobby for everyone. If people have to go out of their way to understand what you're saying, then neither you nor the people you're talking to are going to have an intelligent, fun discussion.

The kind of goofs you're describing really has more to do with how much consideration a person gives to their writing, not how well-versed they are in the language, and as such it applies to native speakers as well as ESL-ers. Of course we're striving for communicability, but the thing is that the ESL speaker's experience in fandom isn't an all or nothing deal. It's not only the utterly unintelligible slobs who receive the kind of treatment the secret maker is alluding to: much of the time a person's grasp of English will reach a level where it's completely passable for everyday conversation, but is still quite noticeably flawed, and these imperfections will be targeted by the pedants. Depending on the person, it can easily take more than the barest amount of effort in order to go from this level of mastery to the next.

If their writing is merely riddled with spelling mistakes and lack of punctuations, the problem isn't their English, it's that they just don't care. That at least is easy to deal with. It sounds simple to say that you should just master the basics of the language and that will be enough, but the reality is quite different. ESL-ers generally run into problems with sentence structures and words-usage, which greatly impede communicability, but these issues are not easily overcome.

That is actually my entire point.

To clarify, if someone doesn't point out the fact that they're ESL, then we won't know, and the grammar commentary will end up being harsh because we'll simply assume that they're lazy native speakers, not struggling ESL posters (or posters who otherwise have a legitimate reason for not knowing how the language functions). If we did know, then most decent people would be able to ignore the overabundance of flaws.

However, on the other hand, you can't just say that we have to forgive all ESLers because learning a language is hard, and fandom is a hobby. Yes, it's hard, and yes, it's a hobby. The point is that both sides need to meet each other halfway. The native speakers can't be completely lenient on ESLers who just don't want to make an effort to get the basics right (and we're talking about the very basics here), and the native speakers can't be harsh towards absolutely everyone.

Yes, pedants exist, but they'll always exist because the internet makes people socially stupid. However, not all native speakers will descend on you like vultures so long as you make an effort to be conscious of how language works - or at least display an interest in attempting to fit in with the culture of the community, language included. To worry about the pedants is a lot like worrying about the SJ warriors: not even the majority of fandom is like that unless you go out of your way to do very silly things that piss off a community enough to side with them.

As for sentence structures, it's understandable that this would impede communicability, but I'm not sure how many of the kinds of pedants we're talking about actually harp on that kind of thing. Perhaps it's prevalent in your fandoms, but it's certainly not in mine. The pedants in mine focus completely on the little details unless the sentence structure leaves them completely confused by what you're talking about.

The short of it is, we've been talking about both. The anon detailing a mastery over the basics of language was only talking about the basics of language, you're talking about more complex structures and an overall mastery, and I'm talking about a mix of both and general etiquette expected from (and the perceptions of) a native speaker.

if you use your instead of you're

That's a mistake typically made by natives and not by ESLs.

periods need to go after every sentence, you need to capitalize every name and the first word of every sentence, and so forth

These have absolutely nothing to do with being ESL. They are a "stylistic choice" made by people, both natives and ESLs, who choose to do it wrong.

spell out the word you and spell simple, common words like person or easily correctly

Again, most bad spellers are natives, not ESLs, precisely because ESLs need to check the dictionary to know how something is spelled, instead of assuming they already know.

Quite frankly, it's rather obvious that you have no idea what kind of mistakes ESLs make and are corrected for.

absolutely true
i am not a native speaker, but sometimes i notice mistakes in native speaker`s fics, and they are mostly of "what i hear is how i write it" variety

As for me, I would guess basic ESL mistakes involve trying to use the right word that nuance indicates is best (i.e., "I have to tell you" or "I need to tell you" - which aren't that different, but it depends on the situation ... nuance); and maybe articles and modifiers that make flow go better? Just a guess.

Edited 2011-10-25 15:45 (UTC)

Yes, nuance is a common one. I've been told a few times that I used a word that was either too weak or too strong for the situation I was describing, and that it was jarring.

Articles can be a problem for native speakers of languages that don't use them. I could always tell when my Slovenian ex-husband was getting tired or too excited while speaking to French friends, because he would start dropping all his articles. He doesn't make that mistake in English because he's fully fluent in English, but that's a common enough problem with some other ESLs.

Difficulties with phrasal verbs is a very big sign. Either getting the wrong meaning when reading, or using the wrong verb/preposition when writing is extremely common among ESLs. Also, making mistakes on when to use an -ing form, when to drop a "to", and so on ("I want helping you", "I want help you", "I want for help you", you get the idea :P )

Tenses can trip even the most fluent ESLs, especially according tenses between the main clause and a subordinate clause. I don't think I've ever met an ESL who didn't get their tense wrong every once in a while - even down to getting a well-known irregular form wrong, when we get tired or are in a hurry, as in "I've went somewhere". My main current baffling issue on that matter is failing to remember the past form of "to seek". At some point, my brain just erased it, and it was only thanks to my spell-checker that I realised that "seeked" isn't right...

Using the wrong word/expression is a classic. I'll never not blush in embarrassment when remembering how, back when I was still a fresh exchange student in Canada, I once exclaimed to a friend at a church dance "You are so nice!" when I meant "You look so nice!" He looked at me funny and the girls there giggled, and I figured I'd said something wrong ~~again~~, but I only figured it out a few months later. It becomes funny when you can spot a fellow native whatever because of such a mistake :P It's less funny when you end up saying something offensive because of it ("coloured" and "of colour" technically mean the same thing, but use the wrong one when talking about people, and watch the internet explode in your face.)

Punctuation can be another sign, especially in fics. When people are used to writing in their own language and start writing in English, they sometimes keep using the same punctuation, which can be anywhere from weird (up and down dialogue tags, no tags at all...) to downright grammatically wrong. Like, I didn't know that comma-split sentences were wrong in English; they are fine in French...

And in general there is the matter of wonky sentences. Not necessarily grammatically wrong, but just not what native speakers would say.

And this/that, at to a lesser extent here/there. I know I'm not the only one who can never get these right :D

Of course, this is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other typical ESL mistakes, but none of them are along the lines of confusing "your/you're" or saying "should of" instead of "should have", because to an ESL who learned English the formal way, "your" and "you're" are very different things even if they somewhat sound the same, and "should of" just makes no freaking sense at all :P

This! I can always spot French speakers thanks to our unfortunate tendency to use commas where in English you'd use periods :)

I've always been a Queen of Paragraph-long Sentences, so I had a terrible time dropping that habit of writing split sentences :P Even worse: now I spot them when reading in French, and I can't help but feel that it's wrong :D (Also, that's my main argument concerning how hard it is to find good betas: I had several betas before finding one who calls herself a Grammar Fiend, and who told me right from the very first fic she beta-ed for me about my comma splits. I was like, "How come nobody ever told me about that before D: ??")

Personally, I tend to spot fellow French speakers because of the verbs they use, and how they use them, somehow. Less phrasal verbs, tons of faux-amis or not-quite-right verbs that feel very deeply familiar :P , use of simple past and present where continuous/perfect is called for, things like that.

And quite frankly, you're missing the point. The point, again, is that the argument is about basic English language usage. As in, the very building blocks of writing in English. It has nothing to do with what common mistakes beyond that. As in, if you're coherent and happen to make a few errors here and there because you're ESL, then people won't descend on you. If you, regardless of whether or not you're ESL, just don't care, then people will. So either way, yes, you'll have to make a minimal amount of effort to learn a written language before posting.

So... congrats on zeroing in on only a couple of lines of what I had to say instead of the whole picture?

Except that your "whole picture" goes straight against what the secret maker was saying. The anon you're defending was speaking of the basics of English, yes, but this isn't what OP was talking about, since judging by the secret itself, OP does master the basics of English.

It has nothing to do with what common mistakes beyond that. As in, if you're coherent and happen to make a few errors here and there because you're ESL, then people won't descend on you.

Yes, they will, and this is precisely what the secret maker is talking about, from what I understand. People can and do come down on you for making minor mistakes. And no, knowing that you're ESL doesn't necessarily stop them. In fact, and that can get hilarious, some people will come down on you even harder if they know you're ESL. "Hey, psst, I know I can't expect you to know that since you're ESL, but [this] is wrong." The funny part? These people are wrong more often than not.

So maybe it's time you stopped white-knighting an anon who clearly misunderstood what the secret was about?

Have you thought that maybe we were going off on a slight tangent? It happens from time to time in conversations.

Also, as a side tip, it's rather amusing that you're telling me to stop white-knighting when that's exactly what you're doing yourself for the OP.

Not only that, but again, that's the point. The anon didn't misunderstand the secret. They were saying that communication relies on a very basic understanding of language and that everyone should be conscious of that regardless of what they normally speak. If anyone descends on someone for anything beyond that, it's because they're ass holes, but the meat of it is that you want to do your best either way and avoid making careless mistakes that would attract the people who aren't ass holes.

Also, out of curiosity, but please don't attempt to insult my intelligence. :/ I'd acknowledge that you'd disagree with what I have to say if you simply said you disagree, rather than that I clearly don't understand. That's the main problem I'm having with you, actually: that your arguments focus more on belittling me and less on trying to correct me or present the point as you understand it. You can make a point without being sarcastic and bringing out the facepalm icons.

(Not "out of curiosity," but you get the idea.)

Moreover, as for your last paragraph concerning whether or not the pedants would descend, that depends on where you post. I for one have never been in a community where people would descend on you for minor errors, and if they did, it's because they wanted to help, not because they're being dicks about it. In fact, that quote you offered? Doesn't sound particularly harsh to me. The real pedants I've seen would actually offer scathing criticism by actively attempting to make a writer feel like an idiot. The example you have features someone who is conscious of the fact that they don't know whether or not someone who's ESL would know what they know. The only faux pas I see is the vague patronization vibe it has. Yes, sometimes, these pedants are wrong. However, as annoying as they can be sometimes, as you've pointed out, the polite ones are merely amusing. Depending on the community, you probably won't see an abundance of the kind that actively tries to make you feel like an idiot just for speaking.

Again for emphasis: It depends on the community. My fandoms aren't everyone's, and I know that there are some that are full of crazy, elitist ass holes. But the point is, as I've said in that other comment, that one - regardless of skill level - should make an effort to understand the basics and communicate coherently with other members of a community and not worry so much about the off-chance that someone will come out and tell them on an ordinary comment that they got their tenses wrong because that kind of practice isn't prevalent in every single fandom.

Whether it happens in many fandoms or not is rather irrelevant. If OP is complaining about it, then it must happen in OP's fandom(s), which is all the justification necessary for the secret to be made.

Also, quite frankly, there are only so many times I can be told, "If your ESL, then you MUST have a beta. I can be you're beta if you want :) ", or watch Person A assume that Person B is ESL because of A's bad SPaG (even when it's very obvious that A is a native), before I start getting defensive any time someone tries to link bad English to being ESL. The assumption that ESLs always write in bad English, and that only ESLs write in bad English, is really grating.

Actually, it's not. It depends on whether or not the OP is actually exaggerating. For all we know, the OP could be stuck in a lousy fandom, sure, but the OP could also be complaining about five people out of hundreds of reviewers.

Genuine question here: do many people who are ESL automatically arrive to the conclusion that any advice concerning getting a beta is actually a thinly-veiled statement that native speakers think only ESLs write in bad English? Because I'd like to let you know, with all sincerity, that this isn't the case. If I offer to beta an ESL, it's because I know that it's difficult to learn multiple languages and would genuinely like to help. Native-speaking betas are a good tool to use for reasons that aren't "because ESLs don't write well." On the contrary, it's because some of them - and certainly not all of them, sure - have been trained to catch the tiny details.

So I agree with you in saying that ESL =/= bad English, but not everyone who offers to beta read for you are assuming you don't have a grasp of the English language. If we can read what you're saying, chances are we get that you get it. We're just trying to help.

The anon didn't misunderstand the secret. They were saying that communication relies on a very basic understanding of language and that everyone should be conscious of that regardless of what they normally speak. If anyone descends on someone for anything beyond that, it's because they're ass holes, but the meat of it is that you want to do your best either way and avoid making careless mistakes that would attract the people who aren't ass holes.

Except that the secret maker can clearly communicate in better-than-basic English, judging by the secret itself. This in turn implies that the criticism OP is talking about is not about basic mistakes. This is why I don't understand why you keep bringing in this issue of basic mistakes. Basic mistakes, or having a basic grip on the language, are NOT the topic of this secret, if the clear way in which the secret itself is written is any indication. The topic of this secret, from what I can see, is precisely the assholes you are mentioning.

please don't attempt to insult my intelligence. :/ I'd acknowledge that you'd disagree with what I have to say if you simply said you disagree, rather than that I clearly don't understand.

I know it's a childish response, but... you started it. You went on and on about how ESLs need to have a basic grasp of the English language if they want to be understood, as though we were too stupid to realise that on our own. Then you gave examples of mistakes that have nothing to do with being ESL. Then when I pointed that out, you congratulated me on missing your point. Don't be condescending to me (both personally and as a member of a group), and I won't act so pissy.

Except that was the point. I'm really struggling to figure out how to better explain this to you, but the main crux of it is that the anon who responded directly to the OP was saying that, in general, you'd want to make an effort in your writing to get your point across. (S)he said nothing about whether or not the secret maker was failing at English. If anything, (s)he seems to be saying, in my view, that the secret maker should simply worry about the very basics and never mind the minor details. What I'm trying to add is that not every community has those ass holes, so I really think the OP is either in terrible communities or overreacting.

You went on and on about how ESLs need to have a basic grasp of the English language if they want to be understood, as though we were too stupid to realise that on our own.

Oh, see, here's where the problem lies. You're assuming. :/ I never said that you were stupid. I said exactly what I said, without any intended connotations: that the point was that in order to get along in a community, you need to ensure ease of communication. This may sound like stating the obvious to you, but I find that it's easier to sort my thoughts by stating the obvious. In no way did I intend on making an effort to discount anyone else's intelligence, and reading over what I wrote, I still don't see where you're getting this conclusion that I outright stated you're an idiot.

Then when I pointed that out, you congratulated me on missing your point.

The reason why I was sarcastic there was because you outright treated me like an idiot by stating quite flatly that it's obvious that I don't understand, like I'm a child. Unlike my prior posts, there's really very few ways to interpret, "Quite frankly, it's rather obvious that you have no idea what kind of mistakes ESLs make and are corrected for," especially if it's accompanied by an icon of Garfield facepalming.

So, if we want to be childish about it, you're technically the one who started it. Like I said earlier, we would have had a perfectly civil conversation if you didn't feel the need to outright state I'm an idiot and break out the facepalm icon.

That was no tangent. That was an off-topic reply directly to the secret.

I didn't tell you to stop white-knighting period; I told you to stop white-knighting the wrong person.

I'm sorry, but what?

You're either accusing me of replying directly to the secret by being off-topic, or you're telling me not to reply to the anon because they're being off-topic. If the former is the case, then I'm afraid you've missed my point. If the latter is the case, then wouldn't it be more productive to respond to the original anon instead of attempting to dictate who I happen to agree with? Seriously, if it's their opinion you disagree with so passionately and if you believe I'm just being a white-knight towards the wrong person, then it would be more productive and convincing to address the source of the matter and convince me that the original point is incorrect. Otherwise, I'm going to continue looking at you strangely because you seem to be more concerned with the fact that I'm "white-knighting" and off-topic than with what the original point of the thread was.

There are several reasons I chose to respond to you and not the other anon.

1. I'm free to choose who or what I want to reply to. Also, it's not either/or: I could have replied to both of you or neither of you.

2. The other anon annoyed me and yet bored me at the same time. They expressed an off-topic opinion, but they did it in a short comment, which somehow didn't prompt me to reply to them.

3. I was much more annoyed by the factual mistakes you made. You listed mistakes that ESLs do not typically make, and that annoyed me very much because I've heard far too often the old refrain that goes "Sheesh, you guys, I know your ESL's, but u really need 2 learn the difference before waste and waist! I shouldn't of to read you're fic a loud to understand it!" when in fact, it's typically native speakers who make those mistakes. We ESLs get blamed for most of the badly-written fics out there, when in fact most of those fics are written by native speakers, and that pisses me off.

So... I guess you were just unlucky?

1. I understand that you're free to respond to whoever you want, but what makes you think that at the same time, I'm not free to agree with whoever I want? That's the question.

2. Meh. No response here.

3. Again. Talking about basic English. I never said that I thought those were errors ESLs alone make. I just said that the key point to communication is caring to be clear about one's thoughts. In truth, I couldn't come up with a better example because it was early morning for me, and as such, yes, I do admit that everyone in general should know how to put a period at the end of a sentence. However, I wasn't trying to name examples of errors ESLs make but instead failures to write in basic English, period. (Is that what was so unclear? Because that's basically what I've been trying to get across here, really: the fact that you were focusing on only one detail of my post that actually wasn't my main argument.)

I'm not ESL, so take this with a grain of salt, but I also kind of wonder whether frequent errors such as you describe might also make it more difficult for other ESL readers to parse what the person is saying. My native familiarity with English allows me to "read around" you're/your substitutions and the like, but if I tried to read something with several errors like that in Spanish? I think I'd have a pretty hard time.

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[ SECRET POST #1756 ]

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