fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1756 ]

[ SECRET POST #1756 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1756 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 07 pages, 165 secrets from Secret Submission Post #251.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Have you thought that maybe we were going off on a slight tangent? It happens from time to time in conversations.

Also, as a side tip, it's rather amusing that you're telling me to stop white-knighting when that's exactly what you're doing yourself for the OP.

Not only that, but again, that's the point. The anon didn't misunderstand the secret. They were saying that communication relies on a very basic understanding of language and that everyone should be conscious of that regardless of what they normally speak. If anyone descends on someone for anything beyond that, it's because they're ass holes, but the meat of it is that you want to do your best either way and avoid making careless mistakes that would attract the people who aren't ass holes.

Also, out of curiosity, but please don't attempt to insult my intelligence. :/ I'd acknowledge that you'd disagree with what I have to say if you simply said you disagree, rather than that I clearly don't understand. That's the main problem I'm having with you, actually: that your arguments focus more on belittling me and less on trying to correct me or present the point as you understand it. You can make a point without being sarcastic and bringing out the facepalm icons.

(Not "out of curiosity," but you get the idea.)

Moreover, as for your last paragraph concerning whether or not the pedants would descend, that depends on where you post. I for one have never been in a community where people would descend on you for minor errors, and if they did, it's because they wanted to help, not because they're being dicks about it. In fact, that quote you offered? Doesn't sound particularly harsh to me. The real pedants I've seen would actually offer scathing criticism by actively attempting to make a writer feel like an idiot. The example you have features someone who is conscious of the fact that they don't know whether or not someone who's ESL would know what they know. The only faux pas I see is the vague patronization vibe it has. Yes, sometimes, these pedants are wrong. However, as annoying as they can be sometimes, as you've pointed out, the polite ones are merely amusing. Depending on the community, you probably won't see an abundance of the kind that actively tries to make you feel like an idiot just for speaking.

Again for emphasis: It depends on the community. My fandoms aren't everyone's, and I know that there are some that are full of crazy, elitist ass holes. But the point is, as I've said in that other comment, that one - regardless of skill level - should make an effort to understand the basics and communicate coherently with other members of a community and not worry so much about the off-chance that someone will come out and tell them on an ordinary comment that they got their tenses wrong because that kind of practice isn't prevalent in every single fandom.

Whether it happens in many fandoms or not is rather irrelevant. If OP is complaining about it, then it must happen in OP's fandom(s), which is all the justification necessary for the secret to be made.

Also, quite frankly, there are only so many times I can be told, "If your ESL, then you MUST have a beta. I can be you're beta if you want :) ", or watch Person A assume that Person B is ESL because of A's bad SPaG (even when it's very obvious that A is a native), before I start getting defensive any time someone tries to link bad English to being ESL. The assumption that ESLs always write in bad English, and that only ESLs write in bad English, is really grating.

Actually, it's not. It depends on whether or not the OP is actually exaggerating. For all we know, the OP could be stuck in a lousy fandom, sure, but the OP could also be complaining about five people out of hundreds of reviewers.

Genuine question here: do many people who are ESL automatically arrive to the conclusion that any advice concerning getting a beta is actually a thinly-veiled statement that native speakers think only ESLs write in bad English? Because I'd like to let you know, with all sincerity, that this isn't the case. If I offer to beta an ESL, it's because I know that it's difficult to learn multiple languages and would genuinely like to help. Native-speaking betas are a good tool to use for reasons that aren't "because ESLs don't write well." On the contrary, it's because some of them - and certainly not all of them, sure - have been trained to catch the tiny details.

So I agree with you in saying that ESL =/= bad English, but not everyone who offers to beta read for you are assuming you don't have a grasp of the English language. If we can read what you're saying, chances are we get that you get it. We're just trying to help.

The anon didn't misunderstand the secret. They were saying that communication relies on a very basic understanding of language and that everyone should be conscious of that regardless of what they normally speak. If anyone descends on someone for anything beyond that, it's because they're ass holes, but the meat of it is that you want to do your best either way and avoid making careless mistakes that would attract the people who aren't ass holes.

Except that the secret maker can clearly communicate in better-than-basic English, judging by the secret itself. This in turn implies that the criticism OP is talking about is not about basic mistakes. This is why I don't understand why you keep bringing in this issue of basic mistakes. Basic mistakes, or having a basic grip on the language, are NOT the topic of this secret, if the clear way in which the secret itself is written is any indication. The topic of this secret, from what I can see, is precisely the assholes you are mentioning.

please don't attempt to insult my intelligence. :/ I'd acknowledge that you'd disagree with what I have to say if you simply said you disagree, rather than that I clearly don't understand.

I know it's a childish response, but... you started it. You went on and on about how ESLs need to have a basic grasp of the English language if they want to be understood, as though we were too stupid to realise that on our own. Then you gave examples of mistakes that have nothing to do with being ESL. Then when I pointed that out, you congratulated me on missing your point. Don't be condescending to me (both personally and as a member of a group), and I won't act so pissy.

Except that was the point. I'm really struggling to figure out how to better explain this to you, but the main crux of it is that the anon who responded directly to the OP was saying that, in general, you'd want to make an effort in your writing to get your point across. (S)he said nothing about whether or not the secret maker was failing at English. If anything, (s)he seems to be saying, in my view, that the secret maker should simply worry about the very basics and never mind the minor details. What I'm trying to add is that not every community has those ass holes, so I really think the OP is either in terrible communities or overreacting.

You went on and on about how ESLs need to have a basic grasp of the English language if they want to be understood, as though we were too stupid to realise that on our own.

Oh, see, here's where the problem lies. You're assuming. :/ I never said that you were stupid. I said exactly what I said, without any intended connotations: that the point was that in order to get along in a community, you need to ensure ease of communication. This may sound like stating the obvious to you, but I find that it's easier to sort my thoughts by stating the obvious. In no way did I intend on making an effort to discount anyone else's intelligence, and reading over what I wrote, I still don't see where you're getting this conclusion that I outright stated you're an idiot.

Then when I pointed that out, you congratulated me on missing your point.

The reason why I was sarcastic there was because you outright treated me like an idiot by stating quite flatly that it's obvious that I don't understand, like I'm a child. Unlike my prior posts, there's really very few ways to interpret, "Quite frankly, it's rather obvious that you have no idea what kind of mistakes ESLs make and are corrected for," especially if it's accompanied by an icon of Garfield facepalming.

So, if we want to be childish about it, you're technically the one who started it. Like I said earlier, we would have had a perfectly civil conversation if you didn't feel the need to outright state I'm an idiot and break out the facepalm icon.

That was no tangent. That was an off-topic reply directly to the secret.

I didn't tell you to stop white-knighting period; I told you to stop white-knighting the wrong person.

I'm sorry, but what?

You're either accusing me of replying directly to the secret by being off-topic, or you're telling me not to reply to the anon because they're being off-topic. If the former is the case, then I'm afraid you've missed my point. If the latter is the case, then wouldn't it be more productive to respond to the original anon instead of attempting to dictate who I happen to agree with? Seriously, if it's their opinion you disagree with so passionately and if you believe I'm just being a white-knight towards the wrong person, then it would be more productive and convincing to address the source of the matter and convince me that the original point is incorrect. Otherwise, I'm going to continue looking at you strangely because you seem to be more concerned with the fact that I'm "white-knighting" and off-topic than with what the original point of the thread was.

There are several reasons I chose to respond to you and not the other anon.

1. I'm free to choose who or what I want to reply to. Also, it's not either/or: I could have replied to both of you or neither of you.

2. The other anon annoyed me and yet bored me at the same time. They expressed an off-topic opinion, but they did it in a short comment, which somehow didn't prompt me to reply to them.

3. I was much more annoyed by the factual mistakes you made. You listed mistakes that ESLs do not typically make, and that annoyed me very much because I've heard far too often the old refrain that goes "Sheesh, you guys, I know your ESL's, but u really need 2 learn the difference before waste and waist! I shouldn't of to read you're fic a loud to understand it!" when in fact, it's typically native speakers who make those mistakes. We ESLs get blamed for most of the badly-written fics out there, when in fact most of those fics are written by native speakers, and that pisses me off.

So... I guess you were just unlucky?

1. I understand that you're free to respond to whoever you want, but what makes you think that at the same time, I'm not free to agree with whoever I want? That's the question.

2. Meh. No response here.

3. Again. Talking about basic English. I never said that I thought those were errors ESLs alone make. I just said that the key point to communication is caring to be clear about one's thoughts. In truth, I couldn't come up with a better example because it was early morning for me, and as such, yes, I do admit that everyone in general should know how to put a period at the end of a sentence. However, I wasn't trying to name examples of errors ESLs make but instead failures to write in basic English, period. (Is that what was so unclear? Because that's basically what I've been trying to get across here, really: the fact that you were focusing on only one detail of my post that actually wasn't my main argument.)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #1756 ]

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