Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-10-29 02:12 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-10-29 02:12 pm
[ SECRET POST #1761 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Early because there's a snowstorm here, not sure if power will stay on. Better early than late!
Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 300 secrets from Secret Submission Post #252.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 2 - hit/ship/spiration ], [ 0 - omgiknowthem ], [ 0 - take it to comments ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
???....????
(Anonymous) 2011-10-30 01:21 am (UTC)(link)She says: "No, they just show you don't know what you're talking about."
You say: "Um, no, it just shows that you are leaving."
What. You are not making sense. You are not doing a lot to support your claim to understand what logic is, either.
Re: ???....????
(Anonymous) 2011-10-30 01:38 am (UTC)(link)My point was that people used to do things that were medically crap. Leeches aside, although I thought it was maggots that have since proved medically useful, nevertheless. People in olden times used to do things that were not good. That was my point.
And the whole point was that what people think of now as medically useful or otherwise, perhaps it won't be in a few years. Perhaps it will be like we think of drilling holes in people's heads to rid them of demons. There is no knowing.
I was trying to relate that point to those doctors who thought they were helping people by drilling holes in their heads. They really thought they were helping. They were not bad people. They wanted to help but did not understand that what they were doing was actually hurting. That was my point.
There, I have explained it now.
Re: ???....????
(Anonymous) 2011-10-30 01:58 am (UTC)(link)I understood what you were attempting to say, although it was not very relevant to what cdaae was saying. I... can't even be bothered to explain what I was pointing out to you, since you don't get it. Never mind.
I don't know how many times you need it explaining. "They wanted to help but did not understand that what they were doing was actually hurting"... But Adele obviously did know that rape is bad and hurts, as you pointed out. She doesn't think it is something that "helps." She is angry about someone being used against their will as a doll - except when she thinks that person is schizophrenic. She didn't think of it as rape when she thought it was happening to someone who was seriously mentally ill. That is the point.
If you think what Adele and Topher did doesn't make it reasonable for someone to believe they are bad people, you presumably don't think it would be reasonable to call a doctor found to be performing lobotomies on mental patients a bad person either, so long as he "thought he was helping." Beause that's what your logic says.
Re: ???....????
(Anonymous) 2011-10-30 02:45 am (UTC)(link)What I was saying was that perhaps (and I realise I'm speculating wildly) Topher thought he was helping. Like those doctors who used to drill holes in people's heads.
They thought they were helping. They never were, but they thought they were, and for hundreds of years everyone else thought they were.
The doctors who performed lobotomies, they thought they were doing good. They thought they were helping. Ignorance cannot be construed as misdeed, and the desire to help, to do good for people, to help them, cannot be judged as bad if you have only the knowledge of that time.
If you gave the knowledge we have now to someone who used to drill holes to release demons, and they understood it but continued to drill holes, that is bad, but ignorance, the not knowing, itself, that is not bad.
That is what my logic says, because that is what is true. Not understanding something is not bad. Doing something contrary to that which you understand is bad.
Kind of got away from the point there.
What you don't seem to grasp is.......
(Anonymous) 2011-10-30 04:08 am (UTC)(link)If they wanted to cure Priya, if that was their motivation -- they could have made her a doll and NOT RENTED HER OUT FOR SEX WITH PEOPLE.
How do you think that added to the cure? Seriously, how was the sex part necessary?
She didn't consent to it. It was rape. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
Re: What you don't seem to grasp is.......
Re: ???....????
I assume not! So what is this helping her you're talking about? Why did selling her body need to be part of the "cure" they were offering?
It wasn't. They were letting her get raped. There's nothing to suggest the being sold for sex was part of what would cure her so your argument is unsupported, and that's also probably why some people thought you were trolling, because seriously now, it was stupid.
Re: ???....????
So please, to clarify: was having sex with the dolls considered part of the treatment? These were doctors doing it, right, under carefully monitored conditions as part of the treatment, and not just some random guys off the street paying to be permitted to have their way with the dolls? Or was that "random guy off the street" (if that was how it happened) being used as part of the cure (somehow), again, under carefully monitored conditions and the supervision of doctors?
The doll in question obviously didn't want sex to occur, as she struggled against it; just as obviously if that was not considered to be unusual behaviour then the other dolls must also struggle against the sex as a matter of course. Just as obviously, their protests are also, as a matter of course, ignored. And when someone in any condition struggles against sex occurring, even if they aren't able to verbally express their lack of consent, I think that legally and morally one can take their withholding of consent to be explicit. And that would make having sex with them rape.
Now, as I understand your argument, the doctors are allowing intercourse to take place as an explicit method of treatment, under the properly supervised etc etc. And if the dolls are harmed by it, it's not because the doctors are immoral people (and horrible excuses for human beings) who are whoring out their helpless patients to make a buck because, hell, it's not like they can object or anything, right? Instead, it's because the doctors are honestly doing their best to cure a difficult condition, and this is one method of doing so, the same as forcing a phobic person to face their fears under controlled conditions in order to help them to overcome them isn't the same as torturing or abusing someone with extreme phobias by deliberately exposing them to their triggers for entertainment or profit. Sure, the actual actions may arguably be more or less the same, but the reason and intention behind exposing them to their fears are diametrically opposed.
But if, in this case, forcing intercourse upon the dolls was a method of treatment and not someone taking advantage of a helpless patient in their care, then why did the doctor order the rapist killed when she found out that the doll in question wasn't actually schizophrenic, but simply involuntarily drugged so she would present similar symptoms? Because that isn't the reaction of a doctor going "OMG we accidentally gave a patient the wrong treatment!" it's the reaction of someone going "OMG That means that this was actually rape!"
So then the question becomes, "If it's rape when she's just drugged, then why isn't it rape UNDER THE EXACT SAME CONDITIONS whith the others?" And the only visible answer seems to be that that one single factor in difference, the doll's medical condition, is what is making the difference.
And that INEXORABLY means that it's somehow ISN'T rape (or doesn't matter) if, and ONLY if, the patient is schizophrenic. Which is pretty goddamned dehumanizing, don't you think?
So this really doesn't seem to be a case of "Well, but we simply didn't know that treating morning sickness with Thalidomide would end up being a really bad idea!" They are obviously well aware that rape is wrong (or the rapist wouldn't have been killed), so you tell me: How does rape figure into the treatment? How does them having mental illnesses make BEING RAPED okay?
Honestly curious about that one.