Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-10-31 06:56 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-10-31 06:56 pm
[ SECRET POST #1763 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1763 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Somebody's been spamming the submissions post with old secrets, apparently (for what actual purpose, I'm not sure). Just give me a heads up and I'll take the repeats down.
Secrets Left to Post: 08 pages, 200 secrets from Secret Submission Post #252.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 - omgiknowthem ], [ 1 2 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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Just out of genuine interest - because I have honestly never met anyone in real life who actually likes Mary - why are you a fan? I mean, you must be aware that she's an awful human being, so is it a love-to-hate kind of thing? Or are you genuinely rooting for her?
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm being sarcastic, I'm really not, just bewildered.
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But since you really want to know why I love Mary, I'll indulge you because I DO genuinely love her. I don't love-to-hate her. I adore her and she's the one character on the show that I am really rooting for.
Mary is the most realistic and human character on the show. She is not an awful human being. Just a realistic average one. I honestly don't understand how anyone can hate her, and I assume that anyone who does isn't watching the show closely enough and has a very shallow understanding of her character. Yes, Mary does things that aren't admirable, but if you look at her life in context, it easy to understand why she is the way that she is, and it's also obvious that deep down she cares for other people.
Mary isn't a saint and she reacts to circumstances in a believable manner. When Mary feels trapped and cornered, she lashes out. In series 1, she knows that her family wants her to be with Matthew, so her instinct is to push him away with cutting remarks. Mary's life makes her angry. She's angry that she can't inherit, and she's angry that everyone sees her marriage and her future as a pawn by which they can maintain the estate. Yes, Mary is bitchy to Edith, but Edith isn't in the right either. Edith does something that has the potential to ruin Mary's entire life. So Mary gets her own back and ruins Edith's possible engagement. It's not admirable, but it IS believable. Throughout series 2, Mary has been a lot nicer externally because after what happened with Matthew in series 1, I think she wants to stop pushing people away. However, in her relationship with Carlisle, I think Mary is beginning to feel trapped again so she's going back to her old series one defense mechanism. In the most recent episode, Mary is cold and says hurtful things to Carson. But she only does it after Carson is basically like "yeah... so your future husband is a jerk and a creeper. I was going to go with you to help you in your marriage, but once I found out that your fiance is a terrible person, I'm going to abandon you with him. Have fun!" Mary's hurt is so understandable.
Mary does and says some questionable things. But even from the very first episode, it's obvious that there is more to her than that. She apologizes to Bates for taking the duke into the servants rooms because she knows she is in the wrong. She and Anna seem to have a genuinely caring relationship. Mary ensures that William sees his mother before she dies. Mary seems to truly love Sybil and wants what is best for her (which is why she goes after Sybil when Sybil tries to elope- not because she is bitter as I've seen people say). And of course, throughout series 2 we see how much Mary selflessly loves Matthew. She does obvious things like nursing him when he is injured, but more important is that moment in 2x02 when Mary decides not to tell Matthew how she feels. Mary genuinely wants Matthew to be happy and once she sees that he could have that with Lavinia, Mary puts her own feelings aside. Mary is not a heartless bitch. She loves and cares for people, even if she isn't keen to show it.
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Juuuust kidding. :D
...he wouldn't know how to work the internet.
*flee*
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lol. Carson's lack of ability to use technology is my favorite thing ever. There was a promo pic released for 2x07 with him and Mary and a gramophone AND I WAS ALL "YES THIS IS EVERYTHING I WANT FROM LIFE", but I guess that scene was cut or something. :(
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So sweet. :,(
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this is why I love Carson sono subject
(Anonymous) 2011-11-02 11:40 pm (UTC)(link)Reading this made me lose whatever interest I had. If the fans find someone not liking a certain character a sign that the person in question is missing out and needs "friends with a better taste and better critical thinking skills", I sure as hell would hate to be on either side of that.
So, in short, thanks for saving me the time I might otherwise have wasted on this show. Appreciated.
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Glad to be a service! It's too bad that you're missing out on a really great show, but tbh, you don't seem like you'd be fun to have in fandom, so it's probably for the best.
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I also love that Mary is so pragmatic and yet she's a romantic as well. She WANTS to be a romantic. That's why she's sad that she isn't more sad in episode 1. She wishes that she'd actually loved Patrick, so that she'd feel sad instead of being faced with the fact that the engagement was really just a scheme to keep the estate in the family. It's why she conceptualizes Evelyn Napier as Perseus saving her from the sea monster. But Mary is first and foremost a pragmatist. So when Anna is all "I WILL DIE IF I AM NOT WITH BATES". Mary realizes that she can't just wither away and die without Matthew. She needs to try and live a life without him. It might not be the life that she wanted, but there's not point in living like the waking dead. I think that this makes her a really fascinating character to watch.
Oh and anyone who says that Mary is a victim of her own bad decisions (AHEM, MRS HUGHES) is a victim blamer and needs to shut up. Mary was pressured into sleeping with Pamuk, but because of the way that her society is, she gets all the blame. Just look at how Carson treats Ethel's circumstances. Boys will be boys, but girls need to know how to say no. What a crock of bullshit. Then in the situation with Matthew at the end of series 1, she isn't rejecting him because he might not inherit. I really don't know why people think that. Mary is just incredibly confused and is being told different things by her family members even though she knows that she loves Matthew. I love that Mary isn't heartless enough to just go along with Violet's scheme. Instead she tries to tell Matthew how confused she is, but Matthew feels hurt and ends things with her.
In conclusion, Mary has a hard exterior, but if anyone thinks that is all there is to Mary is seriously missing out on the most complex character on the show. This ended up being rather long. Mary thanks you for your time.
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And believe me, I'm usually the first person to side-eye any victim-blaming, especially in sexual situations, but I'm afraid I'm sort of with Mrs Hughes on this one. Yeah, it sucks that Mary's society pressures women in a way that it doesn't with men, but if she's really so pragmatic then I can't countenance her doing anything that could realistically ruin her life and the lives of those she (as you claim) cares about. I'm afraid I don't read the situation here as anything other than Mary performing a selfish action and then expecting other people to get her out of it. As for 'pressured' into having sex, I agree Pamuk was a skeevy douche but Mary's shown more than enough fortitude on other occasions in resisting the will of men trying to force her to behave one way or another.
You'll notice I'm stressing that this is all my opinion here. Just as what you think is your opinion. There's no objectively correct answer here and you might want to consider that before you go saying I need new friends or my reading of something is "shallow". Let's be honest, DA is not a masterpiece. It's a soap for posh people, about posh people. I really don't think I'm 'missing out' because I have yet to appreciate how wonderful Mary is. I enjoy DA as a Sunday teatime treat - it's light and fluffy and the conflict is resolved easily nine times out of ten. At the end of the day, I think we're watching in different ways, for different things. Maybe leave it at that, and know that your opinion does not equal fact.
NB I love pragmatic characters - my current favourite is Edith. I find her ten times more 'realistic' and 'believable' than Mary. She genuinely has grievances - being 'plain', being overlooked, having a catty older sister - and acts accordingly. She does some shitty things. But then she sees other people suffering and actually mellows out a little. She's sympathetic. Mary is not. Or at least - and this is the clincher - I find her to be so.
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I think I got Internet debate bingo!
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I think Mary DOES show some spark, and I love that about her. In a society where women were expected to be sweet, meek and docile, Mary is headstrong and brash and speaks her mind. She's kind of a young Violet. When she told Branson to pipe down, it was the best thing ever. She keeps her emotions hidden behind a cold exterior, but she has a fire within her.
You do realize that money + good looks does not = happiness, right? Mary is trapped right now in a relationship with a man she knows to be ruthless and willingn to destroy her. But she can't get out of it without ruining her reputation and bringing scandal upon her family. How worse off other people are is completely irrelevant. Personally, I don't care that Mary isn't some benevolent angel saving the world. She DOES care when people she loves are worse off than her. She's a Slytherin. She's Narcissa Malfoy. Cold on the outside, but will do anything to protect the people she thinks of as "hers". And to me that is way more interesting to see in a protagonist than the typical idealistic one.
Are you seriously saying that Mary being forced to perform sexual acts she didn't quite understand and therefore couldn't consent to is Mary being selfish and expecting people to get her out of it? SERIOUSLY? Mary is a pragmatist, but she's ALSO a romantic, and Pamuk appealed to the romantic side of her. Mary was looking for a way out of her situation (much like Sybil is with Branson) and met this romantic stranger. So she flirted with him and got a bit swept away by him, but then he bullied himself into her room. Mary was sheltered from the facts of life (as were all women at the time). She didn't really know what she was getting into and Pamuk took advantage of that and of her. She's clearly unsure and confused and doesn't know what she is doing. And yet in the eyes of society she is the one at fault and she is the one who gets all of the consequences. I don't understand how this is being selfish and expecting other people to fix the mistakes for her. It wasn't a "mistake". She was taken advantage of.
And yes, this is all opinion. Opinions are fine and dandy, but without evidence, they're just opinions. I don't think my opinions are fact, but I also don't see you backing up your opinions with a lot of concrete examples. You're entitled to your opinions, but you said you didn't understand how anyone could love Lady Mary, and I was trying to show you the many reasons why I (and many other people) love her.
no subject
You see the irony in this response, right? Right? Reverse the names and you have my response to you.
Look, I appreciate the time you took to explain your opinion to me, which I did ask for, but it boils down to this: it's a piece of fiction and, as such, subjective. I dislike Lady Mary. It's not a personal insult to you. I find her character rather unappealing and uninteresting and don't rate Michelle Dockery particularly highly as an actress, it seems like she has one roster of facial ticks and speaks either in monotone or a screech.
In the end, I don't quite care enough about Mary or Downton Abbey to have this argument. You clearly do and more power to you. You evidently have enough people who feel the same way, so I don't see why you're so aggressively making your point to me. You're right, I shouldn't have played the education card and I apologise. I'll admit my pride was somewhat wounded by your insinuation that my opinions and intelligence were in some way subpar because I didn't share your view and wanted an objective way of proving otherwise.
You have fun watching the show and enjoying flawed characters like Mary and Narcissa Malfoy (who I've never had much interest in either). I'll continue watching the show and enjoying flawed characters like Edith and Remus Lupin. No-one has to take offence here.
no subject
Michelle Dockery conveys a lot in her tone and expression. I think she's the best of the young actors on the show. I guess you don't see it, but I am really not understanding your criticism of her screeching? When has Mary EVER screeched?
I get that you don't care enough to continue the discussion so we can end it here. I'm not offended. I don't take fandom debates personally or seriously. I like stating my opinion and getting into discussion because it solidifies what I think which is why I decided to engage you. I tend to use pretty flippant tones in my internet debates (I blame ONTD for that) which is something you're not used to, apparently, because you seem like you were legitimately personally offended. So... sorry about that.
no subject
And I wouldn't care if you did. Because you're allowed to have a different opinion to me. Upthread you refer to Branson as "the literal worst" and a "jerk". I like him, though he has gotten really one-note and pushy of late. But I didn't post a ragey comment about how he was better than anyone you liked. Tbh, I'm surprised you replied to me at all.
"But I do find it weird that you dislike Mary for being an unlikable cow, and then go on to say that another character who has arguably done worse things is your favourite."
Yes, it's funny how this 'liking' things business works, isn't it? Almost like what we're drawn to is subjective and individual and not entirely based in reason. How odd.
Maybe I'm wrong on the screeching. She gives an impression of screechiness. Mea culpa, but the monotone and limited number of facial expressions stands. Re being personally offended - not really, just surprised. You seem like an intelligent, reasonable person quite capable of giving a lengthy defence of your opinion. I don't get why you suddenly needed to be quite so catty about it (like saying you'll "indulge" me by explaining your views, how blessed I am).
Fare thee well, Internet Stranger. This has been a singularly pointless moment in both of our lives, which I'm sure we'll look back on with total and utter indifference. I go back into lurkerdom reminding myself that this is why I hardly ever comment here any more.
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Tbh, the main reason I replied to you was because I had just come across the Mary eye rolling gif and was looking for a place to use it. Also because you called her an "entitled, whiny bitch" and I think that is flat out wrong. If you just said you didn't like her, I probably wouldn't have cared.
I didn't think I was being catty. My initial reply was jokey in tone and I wasn't intending it to take it very far, but then you gave a lengthy reply, so I responded in kind. It's not that serious.
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(Anonymous) 2011-11-03 09:51 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
I think Mary will become the new Violet when she's older ;)
no subject