Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-12-17 03:35 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-12-17 03:35 pm
[ SECRET POST #1810 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 230 secrets from Secret Submission Post #259.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
no subject
On that note, if anyone knows of any other shows with a decent femslash-y following, you must tell me. I need more femslash in my life.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-12-17 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)you probably already know this, but Glee also has some popular femslash ships. if you can tolerate Glee.
no subject
As for Glee... yeah, that'll end up being my I've reached desperation point show. My mom and my brother watch it so I've seen enough to know that it'll grate on my nerves a bit. But the femslash...!
no subject
Half the slashers came about because of Natasha Allergi, one of the actual character designers ont eh show, doing some ship sailing pictures of the two.
But she's a character designer, not a writer or whatnot. She just likes drawing girls. Problem is, some people said "aha, canon!" and started seeing every little thing as confirmation. "what was missing" can def be seen as shiptease... but it can also be seen as platonic friendship.
That said, this is pretty and by the aforementioned designer.
actually...
The sad part isn't that What Was Missing can be read as friendship if you want it to be friendship. Every single ship in the fandom besides Jake/Lady is docked at Port Platonic right now. The Marceline/Bubblegum shippers would probably like to see them smooch on screen, but most of us are cool and just want to read into things in peace.
The sad part is that someone working for a semi-official blog acknowledged the ship on there, showed some fanart on the segment, and asked the viewers for their opinions. And it got taken down almost immediately for being too spicy, and the guy who did that segment was fired for it. No points for guessing, but: apart from being about a same gender pair, there was nothing in that fanart that couldn't be shown in a kids' movie.
Shipping is shipping and sometimes your ship doesn't turn out canon, and we know this. Especially the ones of us who ship mostly femslash other than this. Believe me. We get it. But this is crossing over into actual homophobia, don't you think?
Re: actually...
There's things that shouldn't be on a semi official blog. And one of those things is putting motivations on the creators that weren't stated to be there. Because when something from Frederator studios says it, it is implied to be canon. And since Pendleton Ward isn't vetting these things before they go up, you have to be very, very careful about such things. Adam Muto also agreed that was dangerous territory, that as a fan video it was fine but as an official studio posting it made speculative subtext text.
Now, I'm not inclined to go back and view ever one of those blog posts people archived, it's possible there's a double standard at work here and previous similar incidences with heterosexual pairings were ignored, and if so that's bullshit. That said, I'd have given the guy a warning and let that be that, as opposed to actually ending the blog and firing the guy. But I think it's a tad more complicated then homophobia in this case, though I'm not so naive as to assume that had nothing to do with what seemed to be an overreaction on Frederator's part.
Re: actually...
Also, did you see the video? From what I recall, the video didn't actually say that Marceline likes Bubblegum that way. It said some people were speculating about it, and asked what the viewers thought. I may be remembering it wrong, and if it actually did say they were liking each other, I would understand if they took it down to edit it so it was just "this has become a popular ship, what are your thoughts?". If the non-canon het (i.e. Bubblegum liking Finn back, or anything about Finn/Marceline) was getting the same treatment, of course.
But it's hard to imagine that, say, if the blog after Too Young had hinted that adult!Bubblegum liking Finn back in the future was totally on course, that all of this would have happened.
How would you define homophobia? I'm curious, and I'm not trying to attack you or anything. It just seems like there's this weird mindset going on where someone can't be doing something homophobic unless they're coming out and saying blatantly that they hate the gays, or you already perceive them as a terrible person. People are smarter about this kind of thing nowadays.
This reminds me of something that happened fairly recently, and I promise that this is not intended as a guilt trip, only an example. My girlfriend's grandma passed away, and my girlfriend's mom was adamant that we could not sit together at the funeral. The reason she gave was that my girlfriend was family, but I was not. We would have been happy to sit together in either section, but she insisted that my girlfriend had to sit in the family section and I had to sit elsewhere. My girlfriend's mother even had her friends come over to us and refuse to let us in or even leave us alone until we agreed to sit separately. The woman that I love was sobbing by the time she finally gave in. And a few days after? My girlfriend's mom was trying to pressure my girlfriend into breaking up with me, and telling everyone that I made a scene, threw myself on the corpse, and tried to knock over the casket. I did not do any of those things.
And every other unmarried couple that attended the funeral where one was family sat together in the family section, including a very new couple. Guess the one consistent difference. No, really. Guess. (HINT: IT WAS THAT ALL THE OTHER COUPLES WERE A MAN AND A WOMAN.)
Yet, my girlfriend's mom would tell you that homophobia had nothing to do with it, and we were the ones who were overreacting. And she did have a different reason for what she was doing, even if she only enforced it for one couple there.
I feel like the Frederator controversy might have some similarities with this.
Re: actually...
But Federator has also posted up at least one of Nat's Marcellene and PB pictures. I just searched for it, their site is kinda horrible for finding old stuff and their tags are inconsistent but at least one is still up right now, so I can't say that their posting pictures from other ships is proof of anything. So there's obviously more to it then homophobia, conscious or unconscious. As I said above, I doubt the problem being taken to the extremes it was here.
The exact lines: "In this episode Marcellene hints that she might like princess bubblegum a little more then she'd like to admit. Maybe a little more then Finn... (Natasha fanart right here) do you see where I'm going with this?" ... What do you think about Marcellene and bubblegum... getting together?" Then it speculates where this leaves fin, and asks for commentary. Which is strongly implying canon when it's from an official blog, which is the part I understand Frederator being upset with.
Again, I reemphasize, I'm sure the overreaction does indeed have something to do with the fact it was two girls. But I do believe there was something to react to in the first place.
TL;DR: You got a point, girl/girl discomfort had a role here and that's bullshit. My issues with the blog suggesting canon, which is a thing that happened.
no subject
I guess what I was trying to say is, that most of the people who are really upset about the Frederator stuff are queer people (mostly women) or straight people that are really passionate about equality and stuff. Most of these people are going to have some experience like this in their own lives, or if they haven't, someone they really care about has. It's ok if you think that the Frederator stuff wasn't ALL homophobia, but if you're dealing with people who do think it's all homophobia and are upset by it, maybe keep in mind that they've probably personally experienced I Can't Believe It's Not Homophobia and they're seeing similarities.
Anyway. Looking at the exact lines.
"In this episode Marceline hints that she might like Princess Bubblegum a little more than she'd like to admit."
That's exactly what happened in the episode. Friendship or romance, that was pretty much the exact point of her song, and the point of their subplot in the episode. And yes, I know that canonically it's almost definitely just friendship.
"Maybe a little more than Finn... [fanart] do you see where I'm going with this?"
The "maybe" there makes it look like it's speculation and not a sign from the higher-ups. If the blog is there to talk about the fandom, then covering what the fans are speculating about is not inappropriate. Think about it in the context of another ship. If they were talking about fan speculation over Marceline/Finn after "Go With Me", would that be inappropriate? I never thought they were talking about "this is actually going to be in the show", but just validating that people shipped it and that was it okay. It meant a lot to me personally.
But I can see that it might be a little unclear, especially to people who don't know much about fandom and shipping. I get why they would rather have a "some of you think" somewhere in there! I just don't understand why deleting the video entirely and firing a dude is better than taking it down until a "some of you think" can be added in, and then putting it back up. I think if they ONLY didn't want it to seem like canon, they could have taken it down, left a message that they're cool with Marceline/Bubblegum but don't want to sound like them becoming a couple is creator intent, and that the video is going to be back once a small clarification is added. If the video came back pretty much the same except for a "some of you think", then I don't think anybody would have gotten angry.
no subject
Do you know much about the reaction after? I feel like maybe the reaction after is part of why people are still angry. There was a TON of fan response from queer people, talking about how it meant a lot to have a queer ship openly acknowledged. Some asked for the ship to be canon. Most just wanted the ship to be treated like any other ship and not get censored. (The Finn ships can't both happen, and neither is particularly censored, for example.) Some of them talked about growing up gay, and feeling like they had to make a choice between being true to themselves, or being an okay, normal person. Some people talked about REALLY bad stuff that happened in their youth. (Disclosure: I wrote one of these responses, but it was far from the only one.) Some of these were on tumblr, and some of these were reblogs-with-commentary of posts originally by Fred. If you're not a tumblr person, Fred would have been able to see posts that were reblogs-with-commentary of his own posts.
And Fred DID see some of those posts! He responded to several that were about shipping freedom and that sort of thing (one reply that described the Marceline/Bubblegum fanart as "spicy", when the ones that were shown on the segment were... um... not.) He didn't respond to one real-life-gay post.
I don't think I'm an entitled person, and I didn't feel butthurt that my own post didn't get a reply. I'm kinda balls at writing, so mine was far from the best. But I think it shows something that ALL the real life gay posts got ignored. Not even a "I'm sorry, because the video implied that the relationship would be happening on the show, MY higher-ups aren't okay with it." Either Fred didn't know how to respond, or Fred thought that not one real life gay message was worthy of a response.
I don't want to sound like an angry SJ warrior or anything! I'm happier when I'm calmer and I try to have a discussion, so I've been doing that more than just blaaaargh rage lately. And please don't think I'm angry at you personally, or at your position. I guess just... it's hard not to know that gay people, especially gay children, can face a lot of pressure to be straight and don't always have good and varied representations of gay people to help counteract that. I think it's really not hard to know that if you're working in anything media related and you've got even the most passing concern for gay people not hating themselves. So maybe there IS a good reason not to come off like the show you represent isn't treating same-gender love like a taboo? I feel like maybe not caring at all in a situation like this is also kind of a bad thing for Fred to have done, if that's what he did.
no subject
I am completely aware that Marceline/PB is non-canon, though. Yes, I will view everything with shipper goggles, but I'm not completely deluded. Yet. Though I will say that What Was Missing was deliberate shiptease (which can of course be read platonically cuz that's the entire point of slashy shiptease); the show is waaay too fandom savvy for it not to be.