Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-12-25 03:24 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-12-25 03:24 pm
[ SECRET POST #1818 ]
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 135 secrets from Secret Submission Post #260.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
New Year's Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-25 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)Agreed, OP.
Of course, some people are genuinely afraid that Irene will be sexually objectified — which is possible, of course, though I hope not, and frankly, I don't really think so. Moffat and Gatiss have both clearly stated that they meant to present Irene and Sherlock's relationship as a mental battle between two highly intelligent people — they described them as eerily similar to each other when it comes to intelligence, which, considering the show's emphasis on Sherlock's intellect, is a great deal indeed. Irene may be a sexual person, but I doubt they'll downplay her capacity to be smarter than Sherlock.
But apparently a lot of people are hating on Irene or calling her a 'slut' because we see her naked back — and it's highly disturbing that these people were also the ones cheering the loudest when that bedsheet slipped off Sherlock's naked arse. Double standards much?
To be honest, I really, really hope that Irene's nakedness in that scene is meant to emphasize Sherlock's utter indifference to sex — he does look completely nonplussed at having this gorgeous woman sitting naked on his lap. I also hope that the fact that Irene is a Dominatrix means she sees sex as something to be used, something that's part of her job, something she can control, instead of something she's subjected to. That would make her relationship with Sherlock all the more interesting to me, if that apparent seduction scene was in fact stripped of sexual attraction between them.
In the original stories, Adler was someone who had affairs with men of high standards (such as the King of Bohemia, whom she blackmailed with the proof of that affair). She was meant to be portrayed as a adventuress, someone who didn't fit the respectable morals of Victorian society. Updating this to the 21st century means taking this up to another level. Moffat may have failled in doing so, but we won't know until we see the episode.
I also agree on the fact that people calling out Irene because they're afraid of her getting in the way of their ships (it doesn't even have to be S/J, I've seen a Sherlock/Lestrade fan rant off on her) clearly indicates that they haven't read the story. There was no canonical romantic relationship between Holmes and Adler in SCAN. The story is open to interpretation, of course, but you can also read the entire complete works with the interpretation that Holmes and Watson were boning, and that doesn't (sadly, in my little shipper heart) make it canon.
It has been hammered in the public consciousness that Irene is Holmes' love interest, because of course people expect love interests, and she's perfect for the role (except, you know, she went off and got married, which a lot of people often forget) but Moffat and Gatiss have stated very clearly that they are trying to work as closely as possibly to the canon characterizations and relationships. I honestly wouldn't worry about Sherlock/Irene being made canon. There will probably be some subtext, but then there's a fuckton of Sherlock/John subtext, and that doesn't make them canon either.
Holy shit, this got long. tl;dr: we can't know until we see the episode, I hope Irene is someone who uses sex rather than is used by it, and the way she's treated by a small subsection of the fandom is utterly disgusting. (Thankfully, I'm in a part of fandom in which people are either drooling over how gorgeous she looks or gleefully speculating over the many ways in which she can beat Sherlock at his own game. Usually both.)
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-25 11:03 pm (UTC)(link). . . .
You put into words what I never could. Thank you! This is EXACTLY how I feel about the whole situation and I agree so hard about your interpretation of how her role as a dominatrix is one of power & control and using that to gain what she wants. She knows how to manipulate people as well as create a situation of blackmail - a politician isn't going to want the scandal of him attending a dominatrix to get out into the public eye. It has nothing (to her anyway) to do with sex, it's a power game/struggle and that's it. But some people can't seem to see that.
But apparently a lot of people are hating on Irene or calling her a 'slut' because we see her naked back — and it's highly disturbing that these people were also the ones cheering the loudest when that bedsheet slipped off Sherlock's naked arse. Double standards much?
Oh god, don't get me started on this. We would be here for weeks discussing how fucked up this is. Seriously, we can have semi-naked Sherlock but not semi-naked Irene? Do they not realise how stupid that sounds. Also, what scares me the most is that it's the female fans calling her a slut. Way to be sexist and misogynist towards your own gender.
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-25 11:29 pm (UTC)(link)Also: She knows how to manipulate people as well as create a situation of blackmail - a politician isn't going to want the scandal of him attending a dominatrix to get out into the public eye. It has nothing (to her anyway) to do with sex, it's a power game/struggle and that's it.
Exactly. That's what she does in the books, and it just fits so well in the updated storyline of the show. It also affects her relation with Sherlock, of course; if I'm right to assume that he's not the slightest bit attracted to her (or her to him, which, again, her being a Dominatrix seems to emphasize, in my eyes) — and, IMO, his face in the trailer really seems to indicates this — if he's someone who just isn't interested in sex and she's someone who uses sex as a certain power to wield... well, it could create a really interesting dynamic. It would put them up against each other on a purely intellectual level. Which would be the exact opposite of the way they were portrayed in the Ritchie!verse, I think.
(Don't get me started on how much I hate the way they twisted Irene's character in the movie!verse. They took one of the most independant women in the books — a woman who can make kings and princes dance around her little finger, and instead marries the lowly lawyer because she loves him and he loves her — and turned her into someone who is constantly used by pretty much all the men in the movie, except possibly Watson. I was so pissed when she turned out to be under Moriarty's power. So. Fucking. Pissed.)
As for the misogyny and sexism existing in a mostly female-dominated fandom, well, that's sadly not anything new. For some reason, I had hoped we'd be free of it here — the way fandom treats Sarah, Molly, Sally is usually very respectful — but apparently this shit is everywhere. The double standard is really staggering.
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-26 12:02 am (UTC)(link)From the very short scene with her when she's naked, to me he seems unsure of what to do and not at all interested in her (and not, as some fans put it, because she's a female with boobies and Sherlock likes John only). But who knows, we'll have to wait and see.
I have yet to see the second Sherlock Holmes movie (and don't worry about spoiling snippets for me, I'm not that bothered), so I can't really comment on it. But from what I have heard from others people have also been pretty damn harsh about Movie!Irene. Seems the hate (because she gets in the way of Law and RDJ making lovey-dovey eyes at each other) has spread there too.
Yeah, I've never seen it in Sherlock fandom before until now; I think I was just lucky that the people I follow think the same way you and I do about it. Well, except one who had to spam her Tumblr 'just to have some Sherlock/John moments' to help her get over that naked scene. I proceeded to be gobsmacked and had second-hand embarrassment. I also thought I had gotten away from the hating on a character because they *might* get in the way of a ship when I got into BBC!Sherlock(Rose vs. Martha - some of the vitriol I read from some crazy Doctor/Rose fans shocked me and still does) but it appears not to be the case.
I love the Sherlock/John pairing, and not just for the slash but also for the in-depth looks into their friendship and how they work so damn well together. It's brilliant to see the writing that have come out of some of the writers in this small section of the wider Sherlock Holmes fandom since the BBC series started.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-12-26 12:17 am (UTC)(link)I'm a pretty dedicated S/J shipper, but my interpretation of Sherlock in the show itself (it may shift in fic, though) is mostly that he's not interested in sex, at all. This might also be due to my being a fic writer — I find the dynamics of a pairing in which one of the partners is asexual, or close to it, to be rather challenging and refreshing to write, and a bit of a change from the usual. So that might affect my expectations of S2. It could be altered by it. It's going to be interesting.
I haven't seen SH2 yet, either — it's not out in my country yet! — but I've read some of the spoilers regarding Irene and I'm still not very impressed by their treatment of her. I'll have to wait till I see the whole thing. But yeah, in the fandom, there's been a lot of Irene hate and Mary hate, which is just sad — I really like Mary in this incarnation.
We seem to like both the show and the pairing for pretty much the same reasons, OP! I completely agree, re: the fanfiction — the many, many ways S/J writers have found to dissect their relationship in such varied, impressive, believable fashions have been incredible. I don't ship them because of their gender or their sexuality, not really — I enjoy genderswapped versions of them just as much, tbh — but because of the fascinating relationship they've got, the ways they just fit so terribly well. And this fandom plays on that particularly well.
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-25 11:09 pm (UTC)(link)Sorry missed this part:
(Thankfully, I'm in a part of fandom in which people are either drooling over how gorgeous she looks or gleefully speculating over the many ways in which she can beat Sherlock at his own game. Usually both.)
Oh, thank god there are other people thinking the same. She looks absolutely stunning, especially in her white dress/red nails combination. That and how they bring their sparing into the modern day with technology etc is going to be interesting and god dammit why isn't it the 1st January!
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-25 11:40 pm (UTC)(link)how they bring their sparing into the modern day with technology etc
I know! I assume her phone's the updated version of SCAN's photograph, but the background is entirely different — there are ways to hack into a phone, or backups for whatever data (pictures, texts, whatever) there is in there. There are many more ways to get hold of digital information than there were ways, in Victorian times, to steal a photograph. I can't wait to see the way Moffat will handle that.
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(Anonymous) 2011-12-26 12:06 am (UTC)(link)I know, they really could be siblings! I do wonder if that's what Moffat and Gatiss were aiming for with this adaptation.
Oh god, I didn't even think about hacking to get to photographs (stupid me). It would be a brilliant way to keep Sherlock and John on their toes and would make an awesome commentary on the phone hacking scandal we've seen this year. Now I'm even more excited to see how they've done it.
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I love you, Anon.
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