[ SECRET POST #1895 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1895 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 147 secrets from Secret Submission Post #271.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

I speak in Internet hyperbole a lot. So... idk. Sorry that I didn't phrase my dislike in a calm and neutral manner?

And really, no. People disliking ships is not what makes ASOIAF an unpleasant fandom. The racism and misogyny is what makes it an unpleasant fandom.

[(Anonymous)]

So what you're saying is that because there is racism and misogyny it's okay be a dick about everything else? The problem is that even in the parts of fandom that are very aware of issues like racism and misogyny ship-bashing still happens a lot. Of course that's not a big social issue and certainly less important in general, but it still makes fandom unnecessarily unpleasant for a lot of people. I've seen hate for almost any ship in this fandom just because people think it's okay to go on about how this or that ship sucks, how could anyone possibly ship that... It makes people feel unwelcome, especially new fans, fans who don't know anyone in this fandom yet or fans of rare pairings.

I can say it again, this is not about disliking ships. Everybody dislikes ships. This is about bashing ships you don't like and making people feel like they should be ashamed of their ships.

I'm sorry if you were just speaking in hyperbol and think that I am overreacting, but you might want to consider doing that a bit less in public communities where people who don't know you and your love for hyperbole will read it. It doesn't come across as funny or whatever it's supposed to be, but as aggressive and condescending.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

Yes. That is exactly what I said.

Here's the thing though. Hating on a ship? Not personal. I never said that someone should be ashamed of their ship. I could have gone into detail as to why I hate the ship and think that it is gross, but I didn't. I just said that it was the worst. That is NOT personal and if someone likes the ship they really should be able to let that roll of their back or engage me about it if they want to know why I think that.

Saying that I am a jerkass and lack basic human decency? THAT is personal, and I think that makes you the jerkass and not me.

[(Anonymous)]

You really don't want to understand what I'm saying, do you? Behavior like yours makes people in fandom feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. I've heard fans of different ships complain about this. It doesn't make them any less uncomfortable just because you're not being racist or sexist about it.

I agree, saying a ship is the worst is not even half as offensive or personal as attacking the shippers. But you didn't just say that you, individually, do not like this ship. You said it is the worst, which is a generalizing statement. It's like the difference between saying that you don't like a character and saying that this character is the worst person in the series. One is your opinion. Is that so hard to understand?

I wouldn't be a jerkass about this if it was one isolated comment, but it's something that happens all the time. I don't even know why you would feel the urge to comment on a secret just to tell someone you hate their ship. What makes you think that this is a necessary comment to make? What's the point of a comment like that?

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

On one level, I do get what you are saying. But I also don't think fandom is about being a circle jerk. In my own private spaces, sure. I tend to keep to people who agree with me. But this is a general space. And if you put forward an opinion about a ship that is VERY problematic, I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be clutching your pearls that someone expresses a dislike for that ship.

Me saying something is the worst does not mean it is an objective fact. I wasn't aware that I had to preface everything I said with "In my opinion". I thought it was pretty obvious that it was just my personal opinion. Look, saying something is "the worst" is pretty common internet dialect. Same with saying something is "flawless". It is not fact and it is not literal.

As for what was the point of the comment? Expressing myself because why not?

[(Anonymous)]

Actually I think it's public spaces where we should be most considerate. It's one thing to talk about how much you hate a ship on your own journal or when you're talking to like-minded friends, but I don't see the point of hating on ships or characters in public communities where there are people who may like that ship. it's different if people are having a discussion and you explain why you think a certain ship is problematic or why you don't like it, but just telling people that you hate their ship? Do you also tag hate posts on tumblr, just to make sure the fans see a post that only says "I hate this character"?

I know you weren't being literal. People aren't being literal either when they call Catelyn (I'm saying Catelyn because she's on your icon and I assume you like her) the worst person in the series. They're also being hyperbolic in their expression of their dislike for her. I'm pretty sure you still wouldn't be happy if you made a post about how much you like Catelyn and someone commented to say nothing but "CATELYN IS THE WORST". I know that I, as a Catelyn fan myself, would think that's an unnecessary comment.

I always see people complaining about how unpleasant this fandom is, about how unfriendly everyone is to each other, but every time someone gets called out on their behavior they just become defensive. You're right that ship bashing is not the biggest problem in this fandom. But I do think that this fandom would be more enjoyable for everyone if people - not just you, but everyone - could just resist the urge to reply to a post that says 'I like this character/ship' with 'that character/ship is the worst'.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

This is a GENERAL community. It is in no way similar to tagging hate on tumblr. When you do that you are specifically putting it in the line of sight of fans of that character.

And if I saw someone saying that Catelyn was the worst, I'd probably say "LOL NOPE." And if they wanted to get more specific about why, I would engage them in a discussion. Catelyn gets enough hate everywhere. I'm used to it.

Also this secret wasn't just saying "I like this character/ship". It was saying that the secret maker fantasizes about Sansa losing her virginity to Sandor. I could just say nothing. But firstly, I find people's obsession with Sansa's virginity to be super creepy, and secondly, I think it's an incredibly problematic relationship. I could just say nothing to keep the peace. I concede that I could have voiced my distaste in a less over the top manner. But I didn't. And the fact that I didn't doesn't warrant you calling me a jerkass and saying I lack basic human decency. Like, REALLY. Come on. Stop making me out to be this terrible person when you were the one who turned it into a personal attack.

[(Anonymous)]

It's a general community, but you were replying to a secret made by a fan of this ship. Who do you think will read these comments? Probably other people who are interested in that ship, no? So you are putting your comment in the line of sight of these fans.

I suppose it says a lot about this fandom that we're so used to character bashing that people don't think it's a problem anymore. I have seen lots of Catelyn hate, but I still wish people would stop doing it. I imagine fans of other characters, even characters I hate, feel the same.

Then say that. Say that you find people's obsession with Sansa's virginity creepy. Say that you think it's a problematic relationship and why. Or don't say anything if you don't feel like having an actual conversation about the pairing. But just saying "this pairing sucks" is a completely pointless comment. Yes, I overreacted by calling you a jerkass, but I am so very sick of this behavior in this fandom. And to be fair, I called you that when you reacted to my initial comment that ship bashing is not okay with a snarky "yeah I totally feel good about myself" rather than with an actual reply to what I said.

And I think we've both made our point clear and don't need to drag this out even further. I just really wish you'd stop being defensive and consider that maybe, next time you feel like writing a comment like that, you shouldn't. And I'll call people out on their behavior without calling them a jerkass next time.

[(Anonymous)]

In general people should ship and let ship, but when you know you're dealing with a problematic ship what do you really expect? There are some gross dynamics in plenty of ASOIAF ships, and I totally ship some of them. But if someone calls it (not me, but the ship) "the worst", it makes all the sense in the world to me and I don't get bent out of shape about it because I get why it would gross them out.