[ SECRET POST #1901 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1901 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 150 secrets from Secret Submission Post #272.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I think when most (not all, but most) people say thing like that, they mean that someone who's not part of a marginalized group shouldn't try to speak for said group as if they're part of that group. It's great if allies outside of the group really care about an issue and want to spread awareness, etc, but not so cool if they get overzealous and make it seem as though their opinions are more valuable or end up drowning out the voices of the people in that group altogether.

[(Anonymous)]

This. It's great if you're an ally, but once it starts to be about you, you knowing better what's good for a particular marginalized group, making assumptions for them and being unwilling to step down if a member of that group points out that you're doing more harm than good, that's when it gets bad.

(In this particular case, him saying that gay people should come out because no one cares that they're gay anyway or complaining about reclaimed slurs is crossing the line.)

[(Anonymous)]

(DA) Agreed. Not related to the secret, but: I'm a social scientist and a recent paper published on my main topic of research was all about how a majority group showed 'pro-social' behaviour towards an ethnic minority which had been mistreated in the recent past (forced sterilization, kidnapping children of the minority group to raise in the majority group, etc). One of the things the authors argued was 'pro-social' behaviour people showed after reading an article about their group's treatment of the minority? Their agreement with the statements 'I want [the minority group] to know I am ashamed of how we treated them' and 'It is important that [the minority group] knows how I feel about this'. And I was gritting my teeth to stop myself from shouting You don't get it to the authors. That's not pro-social, or the respondents wanting to help the minority, or the respondents being allies of the minority - that's the respondents being totally self-absorbed and making the whole issue about their feelings and their self-image.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh god, that sounds painful. I get that they're trying to do a good thing, but feeling that your guilt is the first thing that needs to be addressed is an awful, awful way of going about it.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

And, this is why I think many people just sit out discussions of racism or any -ism if they're not the direct recipient of it; they think they look douchey if they talk about what they think they've seen, rather than what they experienced. I'll gladly discuss misogyny or sexism, being female, but I can't talk about other types of marginalization to any significant degree because I have no personal experience and my opinion is about as welcome to the people who do receive it, as herpes.

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I'm not sure I agree. I'm not sure "I want people to know this matters to me" is really all that self-centered. I mean, yes, it's more self-centered than "I've saved some people's lives, but kept myself anonymous because I'm privileged and I really don't want the credit" or something. But I think being upset with people for saying they want people to know they're emotionally affected by something is a bit much.

I totally get that allies get obnoxious. Just the other day someone said "People without disabilities should be the voice of the disability rights movement" and it really pissed me off because hello no. But someone saying, essentially, "I want these people to know that someone out there doesn't hate them and is on their side" is... not selfish, IMO.

[(Anonymous)]

My problem was mostly with the 'It is important [the minority group] knows how I feel about this', because I'm immediately left wondering, 'Important to whom? (also, if your paper is on how you're revolutionizing a particular field by showing that in a specific situation, pro-social behaviour occurs instead of defensive behaviour, you should really pick something that is unambiguously pro-social and not defensive, though that's an issue on the sciencey side)

[(Anonymous)]

SA

I actually think that a lot of times people do actually feel very passionately about whatever issue/group they're advocating for and they get so caught up in what they're saying that they don't realize they're even talking over people. Or sometimes they just assume that since they believe x and they've heard some people from that group that also believe x, then obviously everyone in that group believes x. Which can lead to people in that group who have a different opinion being ignored, talked over, told to shut up or that their opinions are wrong. I am all for having allies and being an ally, and I don't think that people should shut up or not have an opinion just because they're not part of a certain group, but they really do need to remember to stop and listen to the people they're allies of. So, yeah... basically everything you said about it doing more harm than good when it reaches the point where it stops being about the people in question and starts being about you.

(Honestly, as a queer person myself, I wish more people in the entertainment industry had the attitude that it's not a big deal to be gay and would say so, so that there wasn't the pressure on stars to come out/not come out that there is now. But his assumption that everyone would want to come out even if the atmosphere were more accepting is a good example of meaning well but not understanding what it's like to be in that situation. I don't think it makes him a bigot or a homophobe to say so like some people in the fandom seem to be assuming, though.)

[(Anonymous)]

On that subject, I pretty much liked George Clooney's reaction at the rumour saying he was gay recently.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, do tell. I haven't heard about this yet.

[(Anonymous)]

“I think it’s funny,” the actor tells _The Advocate_ of such rumors. “But the last thing you’ll ever see me do is jump up and down, saying, ‘These are lies!’ That would be unfair and unkind to my good friends in the gay community. I’m not going to let anyone make it seem like being gay is a bad thing. My private life is private, and I’m very happy in it.”
“One day the marriage equality fight will look as archaic as George Wallace standing on the University of Alabama steps keeping James Hood from attending college because he was black,” he says. “People will be embarrassed to have been on the wrong side.”

I don't know which sites are considered good sources, but just search for "George Clooney gay rumors" on google and everything is about this.

[(Anonymous)]

That is an awesome, awesome response to those types of rumors. Four for you, George Clooney.

[(Anonymous)]

The guy who plays Leonard on Big Bang Theory said something similar, I think. Basically it was, why would he be upset about the rumours? That would imply being gay was something to be ashamed of.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, and I absolutely understand getting carried away with something and thinking you're doing good without realizing that what you're doing/saying isn't necessarily the best thing for a particular group. Being ally is really hard, since it's so much about listening and trying to understand and sympathize with different viewpoints. Balancing between "I feel passionately about this" and "this is not about me" is not easy. It's no wonder if you make mistakes and that's fine. I only hope that allies wouldn't take it personally if they get called out on something, because usually it doesn't mean "we don't want your support", but "could you maybe support us by doing/saying x instead of y?".

(I'm queer too, and I don't think he's a homophobe - just ignorant, privileged and his comments are poorly worded. I absolutely agree that it would be great if more people in the entertainment industry (well, people overall) would have the attitude that one's sexuality doesn't really matter. The problem here is saying that "no one cares", because clearly that's not true (especially in an industry that is so fond of very traditional representations of gender and sexuality), and, exactly, expecting that everyone would want to come out even if the atmosphere was positive. Or should. Which I think just makes his comments sound ignorant.)