fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1901 ]

[ SECRET POST #1901 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1901 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 150 secrets from Secret Submission Post #272.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

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"I understand that as a white, privileged man, he's not in a position to comment on some of these topics..."

Okay, I see this idea pretty often, but I don't understand it. Why couldn't someone not affected by a problem try to help anyway? I get it's more touchy, since as they aren't in the same situation as the people they try to help, they can't really know what it's like, but... well, the problem concern them too, why do they have to shut up and act as if they didn't care?

I think when most (not all, but most) people say thing like that, they mean that someone who's not part of a marginalized group shouldn't try to speak for said group as if they're part of that group. It's great if allies outside of the group really care about an issue and want to spread awareness, etc, but not so cool if they get overzealous and make it seem as though their opinions are more valuable or end up drowning out the voices of the people in that group altogether.

This. It's great if you're an ally, but once it starts to be about you, you knowing better what's good for a particular marginalized group, making assumptions for them and being unwilling to step down if a member of that group points out that you're doing more harm than good, that's when it gets bad.

(In this particular case, him saying that gay people should come out because no one cares that they're gay anyway or complaining about reclaimed slurs is crossing the line.)

(DA) Agreed. Not related to the secret, but: I'm a social scientist and a recent paper published on my main topic of research was all about how a majority group showed 'pro-social' behaviour towards an ethnic minority which had been mistreated in the recent past (forced sterilization, kidnapping children of the minority group to raise in the majority group, etc). One of the things the authors argued was 'pro-social' behaviour people showed after reading an article about their group's treatment of the minority? Their agreement with the statements 'I want [the minority group] to know I am ashamed of how we treated them' and 'It is important that [the minority group] knows how I feel about this'. And I was gritting my teeth to stop myself from shouting You don't get it to the authors. That's not pro-social, or the respondents wanting to help the minority, or the respondents being allies of the minority - that's the respondents being totally self-absorbed and making the whole issue about their feelings and their self-image.

Oh god, that sounds painful. I get that they're trying to do a good thing, but feeling that your guilt is the first thing that needs to be addressed is an awful, awful way of going about it.

And, this is why I think many people just sit out discussions of racism or any -ism if they're not the direct recipient of it; they think they look douchey if they talk about what they think they've seen, rather than what they experienced. I'll gladly discuss misogyny or sexism, being female, but I can't talk about other types of marginalization to any significant degree because I have no personal experience and my opinion is about as welcome to the people who do receive it, as herpes.

Y'know, I'm not sure I agree. I'm not sure "I want people to know this matters to me" is really all that self-centered. I mean, yes, it's more self-centered than "I've saved some people's lives, but kept myself anonymous because I'm privileged and I really don't want the credit" or something. But I think being upset with people for saying they want people to know they're emotionally affected by something is a bit much.

I totally get that allies get obnoxious. Just the other day someone said "People without disabilities should be the voice of the disability rights movement" and it really pissed me off because hello no. But someone saying, essentially, "I want these people to know that someone out there doesn't hate them and is on their side" is... not selfish, IMO.

My problem was mostly with the 'It is important [the minority group] knows how I feel about this', because I'm immediately left wondering, 'Important to whom? (also, if your paper is on how you're revolutionizing a particular field by showing that in a specific situation, pro-social behaviour occurs instead of defensive behaviour, you should really pick something that is unambiguously pro-social and not defensive, though that's an issue on the sciencey side)

SA

I actually think that a lot of times people do actually feel very passionately about whatever issue/group they're advocating for and they get so caught up in what they're saying that they don't realize they're even talking over people. Or sometimes they just assume that since they believe x and they've heard some people from that group that also believe x, then obviously everyone in that group believes x. Which can lead to people in that group who have a different opinion being ignored, talked over, told to shut up or that their opinions are wrong. I am all for having allies and being an ally, and I don't think that people should shut up or not have an opinion just because they're not part of a certain group, but they really do need to remember to stop and listen to the people they're allies of. So, yeah... basically everything you said about it doing more harm than good when it reaches the point where it stops being about the people in question and starts being about you.

(Honestly, as a queer person myself, I wish more people in the entertainment industry had the attitude that it's not a big deal to be gay and would say so, so that there wasn't the pressure on stars to come out/not come out that there is now. But his assumption that everyone would want to come out even if the atmosphere were more accepting is a good example of meaning well but not understanding what it's like to be in that situation. I don't think it makes him a bigot or a homophobe to say so like some people in the fandom seem to be assuming, though.)

On that subject, I pretty much liked George Clooney's reaction at the rumour saying he was gay recently.

Oh, do tell. I haven't heard about this yet.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-03-18 01:55 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-03-18 18:14 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-03-19 06:10 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, and I absolutely understand getting carried away with something and thinking you're doing good without realizing that what you're doing/saying isn't necessarily the best thing for a particular group. Being ally is really hard, since it's so much about listening and trying to understand and sympathize with different viewpoints. Balancing between "I feel passionately about this" and "this is not about me" is not easy. It's no wonder if you make mistakes and that's fine. I only hope that allies wouldn't take it personally if they get called out on something, because usually it doesn't mean "we don't want your support", but "could you maybe support us by doing/saying x instead of y?".

(I'm queer too, and I don't think he's a homophobe - just ignorant, privileged and his comments are poorly worded. I absolutely agree that it would be great if more people in the entertainment industry (well, people overall) would have the attitude that one's sexuality doesn't really matter. The problem here is saying that "no one cares", because clearly that's not true (especially in an industry that is so fond of very traditional representations of gender and sexuality), and, exactly, expecting that everyone would want to come out even if the atmosphere was positive. Or should. Which I think just makes his comments sound ignorant.)

I don't get that, too. I'm not white, but I'm straight, and I try to promote gay rights. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know anything about being gay, but I thought I can provide thoughts from the side that people are trying to convince, so it'll be easier for both sides of the argument to understand and accept each other. Instead, I always get flooded by comments about how I shouldn't be talking for either side. Kind of gave up after that. People prefer fighting their own fights, I guess.

*gay rights, lesbian rights, LGBT rights, sexual freedom, whichever term you prefer. just so people don't nitpick on that. always managing to use the wrong term is also a problem of mine.

People prefer fighting their own fights, I guess.
Yes, we do. And seriously, not to be rude, but since you have no perspective on the minority side of this issue and we already know everything there is to know about the majority side, what input might you be able to provide on this issue?

DA. How exactly do you know everything about the "majority" if you're not a part of it? There is logic fail here.

Because of course, women got the vote all on their own in the U.S. in 1920. Men didn't have to approve that amendment at all.

this.

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veronica-rich.livejournal.com - 2012-03-18 02:03 (UTC) - Expand

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jak-frostty.livejournal.com - 2012-03-18 02:05 (UTC) - Expand

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fierceawakening.livejournal.com - 2012-03-18 02:47 (UTC) - Expand

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tinuelena.livejournal.com - 2012-03-18 03:01 (UTC) - Expand

Bully for you. Go win those fights w/o straight allies. Oh, wait. You can't. You're in the minority and people who are in the minority position don't win fights b/c the numbers are against them. IOW, there's a hell of a lot more straight people around than QUILTBAG members.

And if the straight people care don't care about minority rights, guess what, they don't exist--legislation doesn't get passed by--guess who?--straight people mainly.

So, go ahead, and alienate those straight allies of yours. It's a totally winning strategy. Not.

IMO there's a difference between talking for someone and talking with them.
Try the latter. It's much appreciated. :)

Really? You don't say. Wow. I never would've guessed that.

The next time people around me are being racist, homophobic, etc. I won't presume to speak for QUILTBAG members or POC. That would be speaking up for the members in those groups and not talking with the members of those groups.

Well, the more you know.

Problem with things like what happened here, are the allies behave as if they're speaking for the group as a member of said group. For example, part of what's upsetting people specifically here is the way he basically comes off saying 'You should totally come out of the closet! *I* don't care, and I say/think no one cares - so you're jobs won't be at risk, you won't be harassed, ect."

Problem is that, as someone whose straight, he's not really in the best position to know who does/does not care, or what the consequences would be...So he shouldn't be speaking as if he does.

My issues with this comment are myriad. A) If you're in favor of LGBT rights, then you don't share the thoughts of the people who are against them, which I would think would be a good thing. B) Trying to promote the movement is not the same as speaking for the movement. I find it hard to believe anybody got mad at you for simply getting the word out about statements and essays by members of the LGBT community. C) Support LGBT rights because it's right, not because it's fun. Because no, it's not fun, you'll get outright hostility for doing it at all or doing it wrong. If it's not worth the trouble to you, fine, fair enough. But this comment makes it seem like you were expecting gratitude or something.

Maybe they weren't expecting gratitude, but simply to not be attacked. You wouldn't insult a child who thought he was helping you do some chore while actually making more work for you... you'd (maybe) just put up with it for their sake, but more likely you'd suggest something else they do or correct them. Nicely, because you know they were just trying to help as best they knew how and they didn't know any better.

There is a history of people trying to help a marginalized group of people, but they don't bother to actually ask and work together with said people. Often people will "help" by marginalizing the group even more. Sometimes it is by taking their voice away. Other times it is by assuming that the group should/could/does behave like the privileged.

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