fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #187 ]

15. Seriously, what's the diff between iconning fanart and iconning manga? I don't get it.

Also, I think I know who you might be referring to.

WTF THAT IS SO MY DREAM TOO ♥♥♥

Manga artists don't mind doujin etc, they tend to encourge it.

Japanese fanartist's tend to link to OFP (online fanart protection), and repeatedly state they don't want it re-used.

If they're that concerned about having their artwork reused, posting it on the internet in the first place isn't exactly the smartest thing to do, you know. :')

I'm I'm that concerned? I don't post people's work anywhere. ^^; Do you mean if they are?

Isn't that kinda like saying if you post an original story on your own lj or something and someone steals it you deserve it?

Annnnnd personally I don't really get why they do that, considering it's not their characters in the first place, and doujin is as you said encouraged, and it's not stealing unless people claim it as their own, and guys it's the Internet.

And what about making art of doujinshi? That stuff's published.

*icons of doujinshi, I meant.

*uses fanart icon for extra effect*

And for whatever reason it's Japanese fanart ONLY. Use American/European/Antartican/whatever fanart and no one bats an eye.

Yeah, in the KH fandom, it was/still is batshit anal about using Japanese fanart.

OMG, DISNEY IS TRACKING ALL THE FANARTS DOWN AND MAKING THEM CLOSE THEIR SITES WITH LAWSUITS! HOW DARE YOU USE THEIR FANART FOR YOUR ICONS?

Yeah, because a 100 x 100 picture is gonna tell the big bad corporate money-hungry bastards everything about who the artist is, where they live, what their website is, and all that shit. *rolls eyes*

Wow, and I thought the Abyss fandom was pretty bad. :')!!

Oh god, you should have seen them.

There was this "protect Japanese fanartists!!!11!eleventy" website with ridiculous precautions like: Don't visit a Disney owned website the same day you visit a fanartist's site. They use programs to look in your history and see what websites you visited.

Yeah, 'cause they've got time and resources to check the history of the eleven billion kids who come to their site to idolize Miley Cyrus in hopes that *ONE* of them will have the web address to some Japanese fanartist site.

I LOL'D so hard.

Wow. Sounds like they've been reading too much 1984.

I react the same way to Japanese and American and European etc etc etc...it could even be seen worse when the artist speaks your own language and it's so simple to ask.

The KH fandom is terrible for it, yeah. ^^; Most my annoying vigilante crap ends up being there ~~people tend to be really nice about it though~~...

Haven't used the 'DISNEY WILL SHUT THEM DOWN FOR THIS!!!' line yet. XD Do people actually say that? O_O

I'm more one of those 'have respect for the artist and respect their wishes!' people. XD;

('tis

levikitty >.>)

If the artist themselves request that their fanart not be used, then of course their wishes should be respected. But there will always be the people who will figure, "Oh, they'll never catch me, etc." there. There are ways to cut the number of people using fanart, by disabling right click and stuff, but there are always people who will find ways around it. Even a huge ass watermark might not help if people just use the parts not covered by the mark. The only surefire way to protect your art is to not put it up at all. :/

With all the password/quiz stuff that goes on on the Japanese fansites, I'm inclined to think the artists are either 1. paranoid or 2. really in some kind of deep water. But I don't see why they would be shut down in on a legal basis. Unless some kind of profit is being made of the fanart, then really, fanart is just free publicity for the developers.

Oh yeah on the Disney, or more specifically, whoever it is that runs Tokyo Disney will shut them down thing. The entire website I saw was based on how evil Japanese Disney was and how they're doing a Japanese fanartist witch hunt. Of course, nobody ever blames big, holy "never do wrong (except for the milking of FFVII)" Square because obviously, Square makes games for charity. :p

Tbh, I'm one of these people who can get round any anti-saving tactic, but I'd never even send it to someone, never mind post it or otherwise use it...

As for what you said about 'if they request it not to be re-used, you should respect it', that's just what I'm saying. ^^; There are artists who say it's fine to re-use there work, and if that's the case then I have absolutely no complaint, and if I did I'd be an idiot, because if both people are happy with it then it's none of my business.

I think the difference with Disney and Square in that (other than media culture) is that the same problem has never been had with Final Fantasy game, or any of their other releases...it's just when Disney partnered up with them. I suppose it's because in Japan the view on fanart is different, whereas in America something like doujin would be a huge copyright infringement.
Although, to make it clear, I love Disney, and certainly aren't a Disney basher. ^_^ ~~People who profess to love KH and hate Disney should GTFO, really.~~

I can believe that they'd shut sites down though, I suppose. KH is the only fandom that I've seen where the Japanese have locked their sites like that...
Companies are catching on, I guess. Like how a Cease and Desist was ordered on Death Note fansubs. (which unlike shutting down fanart sites has some incredibly annoying logic.)

eeeh, I think I've said a lot. One last thing, I'm confused as to your previous comment in correlation with this one. o.o In this oen you said you respect artists wishes, so shall I assume you had permission with the avatar you're using..?

*shrugs* I understand what you mean, but IMO the issue isn't whether they should allow it or not, but that it's their choice with their own art.

~~Making art off doujins? You mean like...copying out of them or something?~~ Ah right, caught your second comment.

Someone's going to call me a hypocrit, I see it coming. ^^; But It doesn't fuss me people using doujin art, probably because it's paid for, and like manga it's published (somewhat).

Money. And that a fanartist can yank back, close up their sites and no one gets to enjoy their art anymore when people turn what were pretty pieces of works into garbage. Because not every person is capable of making pretty icons.

It barely takes a moment to type out an e-mail (in simple English if to a non-English person) to any fanartist. It's just flat-out polite but I do know that the internet doesn't seem to give a good goddamn about being polite. Still, we all lose something when we offend those who can more easily stop than those making money and all.

It's not a very fair way of thinking but I guess that's how it is.

Except I don't really see how making icons is any different from drawing fanart. You're taking someone else's subject and making something different out of it.

Also, and this is my confusion at the fanartist's perspective, but so someone made icons out of your fanart. So what? There's no harm done as long as they don't claim it as their own.

And as for the garbage comment, well, it's true that not everyone is capable of making good icons, but that's true of everything. There are some very good fanart icons also, and they get the same treatment. I just don't see how that's relevant.

The point is not that it's not harming the fanartists in any way you see.

The point is that the fanartists say "DON'T DO THIS. Please. We give you art, and in return, you use our art only in the ways we say."

And then the iconmakers thumb their noses at the fanartists. And the fanartists get upset that they are giving people art, and the few terms they set out to be repaid with don't get obeyed.

And they close their sites.

It's not hard to just not icon fanart. It won't make you any less popular. And if it makes one fanartist NOT get frustrated, NOT close their site out of anger... then isn't that worth it?

They aren't giving people art. :/ The iconmakers don't even claim the art is theirs, they're just putting some lighting effects on it and cropping it down to use on LJ or MSN. Forgive me, but I don't see how that's a sin. It's a fucking compliment if anything. (Free publicity! What more could you ask for? People who use your art in icons are ADVERTISING. I've found so many great artists through icons, really. From people who credited right off the bat and by asking the person who made them.)

I see more problems with the fanartists who take iconing too seriously than the iconmakers, to be honest.

(Free publicity! What more could you ask for? People who use your art in icons are ADVERTISING. I've found so many great artists through icons, really. From people who credited right off the bat and by asking the person who made them.)

and from the people who don't? what about them? free advertising? except, wait, the icon artist didn't credit them.

whatever

And I can see that and I respect that, yes. My confusion is directed both at the iconmakers and at the fanartists: why does it matter so much if someone makes icons of your art? Why should it matter if someone takes your drawing, puts some filters on it, and crops it, as long as they give credit where credit is due? Why is it so important that it warrants closing the site?

I suppose we have different views and therefore different opinions? There is harm (in my opinion and as an artist as well). If I ever made fanart for the public, the polite thing to do is to just ask for permission. It would annoy me greatly that something I worked hard on was taken without permission. Yes, I'm taking a subject that isn't mine, but I did that piece by hand or tablet pen and from scratch. I gave the original own credit, but the art and even style is mine. Iconmmaker do not completely do everything with icons. Don't get me wrong, they do a lot and I am often amazed, but they did not recreate anything.

I know iconmakers also don't enjoy having their icons taken. They want credit. So do fanartists but artists put so much more effort into their work. Things usually start from bigger canvases and they sometimes have hours put into them to make them incredibly. To just ask for permission is easy - they all have e-mail addresses. Russian, Japanese, French, American, British - I don't care. It's always possible to contact them, even show them your work to convince them.

The garbage icons is relevant. I've seen beautiful fanart turned into something ugly and that is offensive to the artist.

And it's about money again. Fanartist doesn't make any, but they are sharing with the public, only asking you don't steal or corrupt their work in any way without permission. DJ artists and the mangaka? They make money and you buy it. They can't close up shop like a fanartist. If a fanartist does, it's a huge loss because of a few people's lack of manners and basic sense. We can ask a writer to translate or use bits of their works in things, so why not an artist?

But I'm just a believer in manners. Not everyone gives so much of a damn, I know. It's a shame, but what can you do? Try to explain until you're exhausted? It comes down to maturity and respect and, again, I know. It's the internet.

There was a wonderful essay somewhere that explained this better than I can (ARGH WHY CAN I NOT FIND IT? cries) but for the writer of it and for me it boils down to: everyone in (as an example, since it's my fandom) Bleach fandom knows that Bleach and its characters belong to Kubo Tite. If I draw a picture of Ichigo, no one is going to think I made him up. There's sort of inherent credit in that. But with iconning fanart, some people will credit the fanartists, but I would guess most are probably not conscientious. And the time, talent, and effort that goes into producing a quality piece of fanart is something that should be acknowledged. Without credit, they don't get that acknowledgement. I don't know if the credit issue is why a lot of fanartists don't want icons made of their stuff, because I'm not a fanartist, but it's one possibility.

Damn, if you can find that essay, link me to it, because that's exactly my feelings on iconing fanart.

[ SECRET POST #187 ]

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Also, 10.

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