fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1950 ]

[ SECRET POST #1950 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1950 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 06 pages, 122 secrets from Secret Submission Post #279.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 2 - spambots ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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First off: I do like Mai nowadays and enjoy reading (good) fic about her. Same goes for Mai/Zuko.

That being said, the Mai hate which isn't misogynistic ship bitterness can be summed up as follows:

-she abandoned her baby brother (YMMV if you agree or not. I personally think that it was a huge misstep to not explore her motivations there more and never bring it up again.)

-she is a jerk to Zuko because she doesn't want to listen to his problems (YMMV again. I think she is pretty supportive most of the time and genuinely cares about him, but during the Beach I thought her reaction to the seashell gift was kinda callous.)

-based on her backstory in "The Beach", some people think that she is a spoiled brat who was forever butthurt about being taught discipline. Others think that she was stifled and constantly forced to fit a very specific mold, until she internalized it, even though she hated what she had become etc. etc.

-she doesn't care about right or wrong, only her boyfriend. Okay, this one is HUGE and a giant mess. I think, again, though, that it would have been better if the show had explored her thoughts on/relationship with the Fire Nation more etc.

Granted, all these gaps in her character make Mai interesting to me nowadays, and I dunno if she has to be the embodiment of purity and goodness to deserve good things happening to her.

Thanks for spelling this stuff out, I always assumed it was pretty much either "she's in the way of my ship" or "I don't like her attitude."

Well, part of the problem is that the people who say these things most often are Katara/Zuko fans, so some people are quick to dismiss it because they think that they only try to validate their hate of Mai and Mai/Zuko.

In some cases this may be true, but even so, I think these are legitimate complaints that deserve to be discussed.

In regards to her abandoning Tom-Tom, I thought her motivations were pretty clear. Tom-Tom was happy with the Gaang. She knew they wouldn't do him any harm. And she knew Azula was trying to test her loyalty by springing that on her. Besides, she didn't seem to hold a personal attachment to any of her family members.

Yeah, I heard that one and it does make sense. I personally just feel that we literally get no insight whatsoever into her thoughts during that situation, so both charitable and less charitable interpretations of her behavior fit to explain what happened.

Ergo we have the situation where people who like Mai will mostly choose charitable ones and people who don't will choose the uncharitable ones without anyone ever being wrong about it since we have no word of god to settle it, let alone enough evidence to decisively settle which interpretation is right.

I see what you mean. I do wish we'd gotten more of an insight on Mai. The Beach was the only ep that gave us some of her POV.

I agree. To be honest, when Bryan and Mike first announced that season 3 would have a lot more Mai and Ty Lee I was excited, but then later disappointed because it didn't feel like that much.

Mai telling her backstory feels overall like a squandered opportunity, starting with the fact that it was "told" rather than "shown". But then, I suspect that Mike and Bryan never anticipated that some people would get a non-sympathetic interpretation out of what she said (spoiled/selfish/ungrateful brat who does not want to obey her parents!).

The more stories and debates I read about Mai, the more I think that there was so much potential to her character, but the show barely scratched the surface.

I only got into the show after all of the seasons had aired, but had I been into it then, I probably would've been disappointed as well. I think both Mai and Ty Lee had strong potential that was wasted. Most of Mai's screentime revolved around Zuko and Ty Lee was used as comic relief.

I agree. Looking back on Return to Omashu, I can sort of see her mother stifling her, but it really wasn't enough to count as legitimate development. I think the fandom's interpretations of the show in general came as a surprise to Mike and Bryan. I can see why they're staying closer to the fandom this time around (only with poorer results, but I digress).

Well, to be fair, in season 2, Mai did stand on her own, but back then, she was mostly defined by being Azula's sarcastic, bored, knife-wielding henchwoman. Which is a colorful description, but not one that equals character depth.
But yeah, in season 3, she was indeed defined by being Zuko's girlfriend.

Yeah, you mean that one line where her mom tells her to be happy because they're gonna be treated like royalty, right? I agree that it was too little to say that it really fleshed out her family situation enough.

There is quite a bit of evidence that Mike and Bryan were completely blind-sided by how fandom reacted to various things in the show. I suppose they did learn a lesson from it, and are pretty savvy now, but yeah, not everyone thinks that this was for the better. (I personally love Korra, but at the same time I have to sort out my thoughts on a lot of things in it, so not gonna debate its good and bad points.)

True. I more meant that her only screentime that allowed development was with Zuko. It was nice that she wasn't defined by him in S2, but she was pretty much a one-note character then.

Yeah, that was the line I was referring to. It was more of a hint than Ty Lee's backstory ever got, but still not much.

I think it would've been good for Mike and Bryan to have been aware of the fandom, so that maybe they could've seen the Mai hate and put more effort into developing her as an individual, but I wouldn't have wanted them to completely mold the show to fit the fandom's wishes (otherwise Mai would've been murdered and never mentioned again).

That's the problem in a nutshell, yes.

Well, if there's one thing that I don't believe that Mike and Bryan will ever cater to, then that's killing off a female character solely because fandom hates her. Other than that, it would have been indeed very good if they had more foresight about how Mai's character would be received in fandom. I have no illusions about any portrayal making her a hate-free character, but I think the valid criticism I mentioned could have been dodged.

Though the problem might have also been that multiple people were writing the individual episodes, and that there was some meddling from Nick's side, so maybe that negatively influenced what was ultimately done with Mai, too.
Sigh, guess we'll never know.

I agree. I think Mike and Bryan are obviously willing to tweak things a bit in order to tease the fanbase, but I don't think they'd ever go that far. The fandom just seems difficult to filter through. So much of it was "Mai needs to die a fiery death" that it seems like it would've been hard for them to find the constructive criticism.

That's also a good point. At least we'll always have fanfic to give Mai the depth she deserves.

I wouldn't have wanted them to completely mold the show to fit the fandom's wishes (otherwise Mai would've been murdered and never mentioned again).

I'd disagree with that. She was an awesome henchmen, and I don't think anyone had much hate for her until she move from being a tertiary character to a secondary character. She just didn't have enough personality to be second tier.

She just didn't have enough personality to be second tier.

Let's face it, if Mai were a man she would have been higher up on the ladder. It wasn't that she had no personality, it was that her personality is only appreciated in men.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-05-06 00:33 (UTC) - Expand

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checkerblob.livejournal.com - 2012-05-06 01:32 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-05-07 14:11 (UTC) - Expand

That's true. Guess I shouldn't have placed that thought as one the fandom was filled with before S3.

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(Anonymous) - 2012-05-06 00:36 (UTC) - Expand

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uponadecember.livejournal.com - 2012-05-06 00:47 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2012-05-06 00:50 (UTC) - Expand

One of the things that drove me nuts about her callousness was not the seashell, it was "What's the big deal about not going to the war meeting? You remember what happened last time." It was like... you don't get him at all.

Also, for me, their relationship was coded as part of what Zuko always thought he wanted, but wasn't making him happy. Like everything in the Fire Nation when he got his honor back was really nice, but kind of felt hollow compared to what he had before. It felt kind of odd that he made all those changes, but Mai was still totally the right girl for him, even though she didn't really have any sort of epiphany.

YMMV, but those were a couple of the issues I had with it. I didn't want her to die/be miserable, I just felt that she didn't have enough characterization for the role they put her in in season 3. It also would have worked to me if it was "this is supposed to feel hollow." They also kind of screwed the pooch though with Ty Lee; girl who wants to be unique/not part of a matching set? Put her in the Kyoshi Warriors! :D"

Also, I didn't really want to see any of the characters just mope. It's an action adventure cartoon. If I wanted angsting and moping I'd be watching something else. :P

See, I think Mai was supposed to be the one good thing that Zuko had at the Fire Nation, so that he would be sacrificing some of his own happiness for the sake of being "good", and therefore make his decision more poignant. And to be fair, he did seem to genuinely like her. Like that dreamy expression he gets when he talks with Sokka about her.

I guess so, but I just didn't read it that way. I kind of figured any relationship with his father, his comfort, being a prince, etc. were all things that he sacrificed.

I can see him liking her there, but other than that... they always seemed just kind of jaded to miserable together. YMMV, but I never saw them actually happy together in the show, or doing anything meaningful together, etc. I couldn't even tell you why they liked each other, or what they liked about each other.

Especially the war meeting thing. That does not seem like a good thing that I would be sad to leave. "Yeah, thanks, honeybear, when I was worried about daddy not loving me, I really needed to be reminded me how he scarred and disgraced me because of the last war meeting."

Fair enough, and I kinda agree.

Well, he did laugh when she said that orange is an awful color. So he seems to find her funny. And during the war meeting drama, I think she was trying to calm him down both by convincing him that joining int wouldn't be that great anyway and by telling him that he wasn't invited because him being there was taken for granted. Ultimately, she was right about the latter.

As for more the rest is sadly more inferred than actually shown on the show, like knowing each other for a long time. Plus, I guess Zuko might prefer Mai's apathy and calmness because a perky person who wants to make him happy would only annoy him?

I can see those things, and they're fine for me for a temporary relationship, but not true love/the one thing that he has to give up, etc. (I do like the bit when it was just so assumed that he would be there, etc. That was good. *thumbs up* Just there are a million things to say about how it's not important besides, remember how your dad scarred you last time?)

I'm not saying that it makes her a bad character, it just doesn't make really convincing relationship. I hate to use the example, but when Zuko was nervous about going into Iroh's tent, I felt Katara was more supportive/worked better with him in terms of personality.

Yeah, I guess it does drive me crazy that they didn't really do much to establish them. They were pretty cute in the comic (from what I remember), and I can see him thinking she's funny too, if they did it more than once in the actual show. I kind of took the orange thing as a "haha, oh you! I've missed being around you/friends," but I can see in a larger context he might have liked her sense of humor. (Although what she likes about him... I don't know, but she's hard to read.)

I can also agree with Maiko could have been awesome, but they botched it in the show. It wouldn't have been my personal preference, but I could see how it work and be appealing and might have been okay with it if it had played out better.

They seemed pretty happy when they were making fun of the sunset together in "The Headband". And until Zuko started angsting about the war meeting they seemed quite content cuddling on the couch and ordering servants around in "Nightmares and Daydreams". Heck, Mai even giggled a little bit.

I agree at first they seems happy and I'm cool with that, I just wish they had kept that in more than the first episode (and have had the cute hook up actually in the show!)

I can get the cuddling, I guess, but the ordering the servants around does not seem like a good sign for a healthy relationship. If there were more development/positive things about it, I'd be more okay with it, but without much saying why they like each other it makes it seem all political. I don't think Mai actually cares about power that much, but it just doesn't look good when one of their few good moments is ordering people around, you know? It makes it look like it's supposed to be hollow and a perk of power rather than true love...

Maybe it's more that it had potential, but tripped over it's own shoestrings shortly after the race began.

THIS, ALL OF THIS! You put my thoughts into words way better than I ever could have!

Ftr, I thought the moping was kind of cute at first, but there is a limit to how much moping I can handle in one series/character.

For me it's totally your first point- I'm the oldest of four children (spread over twelve years from me to the youngest) and over my dead body would I *ever* have let something like that happen. Again, maybe she had a back-up plan, but since we never saw anything... *shrug* It's no good in my book.

I don't actively hate her, but I don't really like her either, and these are pretty much accurate reasons why. Her callousness is one thing, but your last point is my biggest problem with her (or with the writers' treatment of her, I suppose). She didn't switch sides because she realized what the Fire Nation was doing was wrong, she switched for her boyfriend. She was apathetic towards the Fire Nation's cruel imperialism, and actively supported it by working for Azula. We never saw her thinking "hey, maybe this is wrong, maybe there's a reason Zuko is switching sides." No, it was just "I love Zuko! PEACE OUT, AZULA." I wish we had at least gotten a little conversation with her later one where she explains to someone that she understands why Zuko left and has had a change of heart as well, or something like that.

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