Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-05-09 06:37 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-05-09 06:37 pm
[ SECRET POST #1954 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1954 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 040 secrets from Secret Submission Post #279.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
No, I wouldn't say it's all about physical size. It's that asian gangs almost never come to mainstream attention. Most east asians fight exponentially more amongst themselves than with other races and you almost never hear of an asian gang attacking a white person or doing anything violent in public, and if a group of thugs is pressuring a chinese/korean/japanese/viet store owner, nobody gives a shit so it never makes the news because nobody (white) cares. That east asian store owner likely doesn't speak english (easier target if they don't), and is less likely to call the cops because of the language barrier (not as big an issue for other minorities) and because they don't trust the cops to do anything about it (valid or not, the point is they're paranoid for cultural reasons) - also, the idea of saving face. But as soon as the gang hits like, a poor little innocent white girl, they know they're in deep shit with sirens and cops swarming everything because that's how racism works.
Are they definitely there though? Yeah. Capable of handling themselves? As well as any other race, I guess (stereotypical as it sounds we actually do have a disproportionate number of martial artists). They just stay off the radar, or try to at least - and they've got a huge advantage there. Like, hispanic and black gangs also do the same thing ("oh shit they're white, leave em alone, that's asking for trouble"), but have more mainstream attention put on them (esp. black people) to begin with because they're already villainized/stereotyped by society in a way east asians aren't. Cops ARE way more likely to look at a lower class black or hispanic person and automatically suspect them of gang activity (true or not) than an east asian person because like you said, it's just "not a thing" to most people. (And yknow, they LIKE that. What you're doing is comparing warriors to rogues - culturally, at least.)
Basically it's not that it doesn't happen, it's that it isn't noticed. Nobody calls, nobody cares. That's the case for a whole lot of majority-asian communities in the US, especially the ones that are lower-class. Maybe it's different in the UK, I don't know, but in various Chinatowns/Koreatowns and stuff over here in the US, gang activity most definitely happens and often on way larger scales than most people realize.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-05-10 02:50 pm (UTC)(link)Oh, there certainly exists east-asian organised crime, to varying levels. But if you honestly break down the culture, the crime rates and so on they are underrepresented compared to say the UK, America, Europe etc. For whatever reason, culturally the Japanese and to varying extents other large chunks of Asia are less violent, even when running all the necessary controls and taking into account reporting issues.
You take kids who’ve been beaten by their dads, gotten bigger and constantly been in fights with other local kids, and then finally big enough that they’re frequently getting into fights with us, well that breeds a certain sort of person. Or simply our drinking culture, and sports fandom – well it’s a thing to behold. You take that level of systematic culture of violence, and match it up to say the Asian communities? Well I know which set I don’t like to mess with without a baton, CS, helmet and shitload of colleagues.
The size issue is because if someone’s looking to give me a good kicking, it’s a large factor in whether they’ll be able to. Not get internet badass up ins, but I’m 6”7’ and reasonably in shape – the average Asian man is literally a foot shorter than me, and around sixty pounds lighter (and five inches shorter and thirty pounds lighter then the average 35 and under white british male). Now that’s not to say you don’t find the occasional Asian guy who breaks those standards, but I’ll be honest, I’ve never run into an Asian as tall as me – but I’ve seen plenty of white/black guys looking me in the eye or even down on me.
That’s a pretty major factor in the ‘Getting shook that I’m gonna get merked’ stakes. I.e. petty intimidation and violence (you know, thug behaviour).
Suffice to say, I can see why say someone in Southwark is going to find it harder to take an east-asian thug seriously.
no subject
There are a whoooole lot of cultural issues there that prevent calls from being MADE in the first place by the victims (especially if it's things like rape and prostitution, the culture of shame is about 100x stronger), and to say something as broad as that re: violence happening at all (especially calling white and black people awful while doing it) is really misleading in the same vein as saying "well, men are awful, but I've never had a man report domestic violence from a woman" and leaving it as that (as can be seen by the people responding to you). ):
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-05-10 05:53 pm (UTC)(link)"But if you honestly break down the culture, the crime rates and so on they are underrepresented compared to say the UK, America, Europe etc."
...It doesn't really work like that. I mean, yes, the crime RATES might seem to be, for certain cultures, but if you're going to talk about controls and account reporting issues in Asia itself, then, as someone who's Asian and born and raised and currently living in Asia, I'd actually have this to say: it depends on where you live and there's a lot more to it than that. You're not entirely incorrect in your first statements, but-
First off, I'd agree with you about the following. SOME Asian societies (see: Japan, Singapore) have notriously low crime rates, but I would be extremely hesistant to say that this means that Asians are not as good as Westerners at being -- uh, thugs, or less likely to commit violent crime. The entire society and societal norms are quite different, as would be this thing that you call a free press. There's the concept of face (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept) for more information) which, to be fair, doesn't exist ALL over Asia but is responsible for crimes simply NOT BEING acknowledged or reported or publicised for the simple reason that it makes people and countries look bad.
Western culture -- from what I know of it -- doesn't seem to have this mental block. And there are tons of other small things, like... well, frankly, one of the things I was taught as part of the national ethos of my country when I was yong was to place the Nation above my community, and my society above myself. The individual is at the very bottom rung of the societal ladder. Here, at least (and again, this isn't specific to all of Asia, but might be for a good deal of it), you won't come across thugs in the same sense as you would in the West. You wouldn't expect to. The kind of culture that might motivate them to display or demonstrate their abilities or which would report on them does not exist here.
The basic point of this is, you're right -- East-Asians might be less likely to be thugs in the Western sense. This does not mean violence doesn't exist on very comparable scales, but you'll have to take in a lot of background factors (or at least, more than you seem to be considering) to really account for all the forms it does. A lot of people in general also probably WOULDN'T try being thugs or intimidating or performing violent crime if they didn't think it would pay off or be successful, and for minorities in a country like yours (though I may be reaching a bit here), I'd think that they'd be far more likely to keep such violence specific to their own community. Because of some of the points I was talking on earlier, chances are if you're not Asian you really wouldn't be exposed to a lot of that. (TBC)
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-05-10 05:54 pm (UTC)(link)Secondly: Speaking of one-on-one fights, put your average asian guy against your average white guy and yes the asian guy will probably be lighter and shorter. This is very true. But- then you talk about things like kids who've been beaten by their dads and who've had harsh childhoods and... I don't think that's something that is exclusive to people who are White. I think there was a study once on the propensity of parents of various ethnicities to abuse their children (with abuse being defined by the study, what they really did was to ask the parents which particular behaviours out of a list they found acceptable) and the ones who were most likely to be extremely harsh -- to beat their kids, and so on -- were the Chinese ones. I apologise for not having this study on hand, it's been a while since I read it, but I can find it for you if you're interested. It was specific to my country, but again, I live in Asia. Physical violence against children is a common and entirely accepted norm. Kids get in fights a lot, but it's considered shameful to be seen in them, and even MORE shameful to actually lose. There's a lot that goes unsaid in communities here.
Thirdly (and this one's short!) -- you're very familiar with your culture, that's good. You know about how parents treat their children, and about drinking culture, and sports culture -- but just because you do not know of any Asian equivalents does not mean that they do not exist or are less likely to exist. It simply means you don't know of them.
Drinking is... a thing in Asia. Since you seem to be focusing on East-Asian communities here, drinking in business, drinking in pubs, it's actually quite a big thing. Sports fandom... again, it's not as if that's something that's exclusive to people who aren't Asian. There can and has been a considerable amount of off-the-pitch violence associated with sports like Cricket, which of course is usually also wrapped up with nationalistic pride and a bunch of other things.
Gang culture is also very common -- maybe you haven't seen it, in which case, good for you. Bu that doesn't mean that Asian gangs don't exist. Like technophile's pointed out, calls aren't often made and there's... definitely also a loss of face that's occured if you have to ask someone not your ethnicity to deal with a problem that's really meant to be kept in your community.
You might not take the idea of an Asian thug seriously because they've never directly threatened you or anyone you know. This does not mean Asian thugs don't exist, or that they don't threaten people in general. I understand why you're not intimidated by the thought of them, and that's fine, but to think or assume that they wouldn't exist or would be less violent than any other type of thug would be a somewhat incorrect assumption to make.
...Well, uh -- not as short as I planned on, but there you are, anyway. Also I've tracked this post, and I wouldn't mind talking more if you're interested, I could definitely go on for a while about stuff related to this.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-05-10 06:49 pm (UTC)(link)Genuinely interested for you to go on.
I guess to clarify, I'm not stating that these problems don't exist in Asian (keep using this, and tbh you're right it's messy and inaccurate, but easier then typing Japanese+Korean+China, though obviously in and of themselves they all have notable differences just fall under certain over-riding cultural elements).
I'm just saying that there's a difference in the ways that cultures express themselves and the individuals they create, and it's overly reductive to for example suggest that all cultures express violence to the same level, or in the same ways.
no subject
I think anon was trying to say - violence of comparable levels does exist, it's just not acknowledged. In a lot of Asian cultures if your - child, for example, is a gangster or a thug or involved in organized crime, a lot of parents will be entirely hands off and disown them and pretend they don't exist. Crimes will be committed but never acknowledged, much less reported - because it's embarrassing. And embarrassing and the idea of "losing face" i.e. looking bad to all your social peers (because of being "bad parents" that couldn't control their child or raise them properly etc etc because all those connected to you reflect on you - ) matters so much more to Asians in Asia than anybody in the West.
In all honesty, a parent's first reaction to "mom, I joined a gang" might be "oh my god, you're embarrassing us. Everyone else will know. Did you do anything in public? What's wrong with you? Do we have to move out of town?" (It wouldn't be that in all cases obviously, but it wouldn't be uncommon.) But there's this huge focus on "who else knows? Who else is judging? Hide it first, THEN solve the problem." Regardless of whether or not seeking outside help might help solve it more quickly - for example, mental illness. People in many parts of Asia are actually embarrassed to be depressed. Depression being common isn't a thing, if you're on medication for that you're "mentally ill" and people will whisper behind your back about you being crazy. And if your grandparent has dementia, shut him up indoors and don't let anybody see him and don't get him treatment because that means admitting he's losing it. If you suffer domestic abuse in that kind of culture (parents on kids, you better bet that happens), going to the cops is not a thing. The same kind of hesitance applies to reporting other crimes in general.
Also, a lot of Asian cultures don't - acknowledge the lower-class areas and people, except from a distance. They're way harsher (socially, at least) against them than Westerners are to their lower classes and the idea of "don't ask about their problems and they won't tell us about their problems then there aren't any" is really strong in a lot of areas. Asia is extremely conservative - and there's a strong belief that "if they're poor, they're stupid. They didn't work hard enough." Imagine that kind of mindset only it's the majority of the continent. The West sort of has a history of muckrakers and things like that, people exposing corruption and crusading for the lower classes. People like seeing justice being done and crimes being reported and stopped and stuff -
On the flip side, a lot of Asian countries like prefer that their country LOOKS perfect. The government might be entirely corrupt but it's THEIR problem and THEY'LL deal with it - they don't want outsiders poking their noses in (and country vs country tensions are everywhere, you better believe Korea is so goddamn ready to judge Japan for everything and vice versa), so they generally don't talk about it except among themselves. If there are problems, hide them. If there's homeless, arrest them and drag them off the streets. If there are people who express government dissent or are openly gay or other things like that, censor them entirely out of the media. Crimes are actually less reported even by the media because it's shocking and disturbing to the viewers who aren't used to hearing it (:OOO this stuff only happens in violent places with like, black people and OUR country isn't one of them, right?), and most of the worst stuff is censored or considered too controversial to air. (That was a lot of rambling, but related to the whole "we want our group to look good" thing. That carries over to the West, too, where people purposely TRY to be the "model minority.")
Usually, non-Asians (or even foreign-born Asians) don't get to see any of this - because they don't want you to see them and judge them for it. It is slowly getting better, but - when I said warriors vs rogues, welp...
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-05-11 01:03 am (UTC)(link)"...it's overly reductive to for example suggest that all cultures express violence to the same level, or in the same ways."
Yeah, I'd absolutely agree with you on this. Asian cultures (in the most general sense) really would be less likely to express violence on a regular level or have it be shown in the same way that White cultures do. There's a lot less tolerance for ANY expression of those kinds of things in communities at large -- violence and being able to fight is one thing, knowing how to fight is fine, but being CAUGHT fighting or being seen fighting is entirely another.
I'd think you're right when you say that or when you think that as a White guy you're far less likely to be threatened by Asian thugs and that they probably wouldn't be an issue for you. But that links a lot to what you said about violence. It's less obvious or overt, and oftentimes you won't find people fighting for the sake of fighting, and the expression of violence is rarely a casual thing or seen as normal in any sense.
The thing is, I'd... actually venture to say that there really is more to it than simply 'less violence in Asian communities'. It'd be more accurate to say 'less violence against people who aren't from their community and a LOT less acknowledgment or talking about violence'. I'm certainly not saying that Asian communities express violence the same way that White communities do; but to say that it's any more or any less... that would depend, and the question to ask here would be 'who exactly is violence being expressed AGAINST', and one of the answers -- I say one of, because it's really a bit of a multi-faceted issue -- would be 'not really people like you'.
It's like -- someone in your position, looking as you do (tall, fairly capable of handling himself, authority), you're... really a lot less likely to be privy to a lot of violence that might be happening in Asian communities. Thugs, gangs, things like that, because of the way societies in Asia tend to view violence, things like that are often sort of ignored, pushed to the side, or just plain not talked about or mentioned. If they happen, it's a community issue. Unless you're IN the community or part of it, it... really isn't as likely to show.
And as for getting into communities or gaining access of any sort, or getting people to talk about these issues in a specific way, that's extremely hard. Even for me -- I might be Asian but put me in New York and ask me to talk about the exact nature of the Chinese community there and I'd be at a loss, there are a lot of cultural markers which I simply wouldn't have or wouldn't know about. Sure, I'm technically the same ethnicity as they are, but to them I'd be a total outsider, and you can bet that most people there who are Chinese would just sort of NOT let me know if things like that are ongoing. Of course, I know they are, and they know I know things like that probably happen, but none of us would be likely to speak on it. It's really impolite, also kind of embarrassing.
Other than that... I think techno did cover most of the other points I'd have made. Hope this explained things a little, as well. Sorry if I'm going in circles a bit, it's still pretty early here.